.30-06 and IMR 4955 or Superformance

[Boozer]

Has anyone tried this combo yet? I've been doing a little load development on a 185gr berger classic hunter, and am looking for a little more velocity than my H4350 is giving me. I was hoping to get 3000fps. I'm running a 26" barrel.

Hodgdon 2016 manual lists:
IMR 4955 a max (compressed) charge at 61gr, 2828fps and 60K psi.
Superformance 59.7gr, 2840fps, and 57,600psi.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Has anyone tried this combo yet? I've been doing a little load development on a 185gr berger classic hunter, and am looking for a little more velocity than my H4350 is giving me. I was hoping to get 3000fps. I'm running a 26" barrel.

Hodgdon 2016 manual lists:
IMR 4955 a max (compressed) charge at 61gr, 2828fps and 60K psi.
Superformance 59.7gr, 2840fps, and 57,600psi.

Try IMR 7828 SSC. I use it in my .30-06 AI with Berger 185 VLD's. I don't know if you're going to reach 3K with a 185 in a regular .30-06 Sprg. It's a stretch even for me in my AI version with a 26" barrel and slow powder.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Has anyone tried this combo yet? I've been doing a little load development on a 185gr berger classic hunter, and am looking for a little more velocity than my H4350 is giving me. I was hoping to get 3000fps. I'm running a 26" barrel.

Hodgdon 2016 manual lists:
IMR 4955 a max (compressed) charge at 61gr, 2828fps and 60K psi.
Superformance 59.7gr, 2840fps, and 57,600psi.

you need to step to a 300win or similar to get 3K fps out of a 30cal. with 180's... Heck, my 24" bbl'd '06 only hits a bit over 2800 fps with 165's. I'm on my 5'th 30-06 and I've never been able to get better than 2800-2850fps with a 180-- and that was in a ruger rifle using rl22.
Either I or H4895 is a good powder for the '06 if you are using 150's... I wouldn't use Superformance if it was given to me... I've got a # or so of the 2# I bought to play with when it first came out. I'm thinking it may just become fertilizer as I really don't like it.

 

[Boozer]

Yeah, I thought that 3K would be a bit of a stretch, but if I worked up slow and ended up a little over book max for either of these loads, it would probably get me darn close. That's why I was asking if folks had any experience with them, particularly the IMR. I threw in the Superformace because it seemed to run a little lower pressure and higher velocity.

 

[roninflag]

may be something here for you.... ron ...... 30-06 +p with low temp sensitivity | Ask The Gunwriters | 24hourcampfire

 

[MudRunner2005]

About the only way to get 3K out of an '06 case and a 180-185 grain bullet, is to go with a .30-06 AI 40º Shoulder and slow burning magnum powder (like 7828 SSC, 7977, Reloder 26, H1000)...

Or, you could go wildcat and open the chamber to .300 Sherman or .30 Gibbs, and form cases from .270 Win or .280 Rem cases (longer than '06 cases), and slow burning magnum powder.

 

[gohring3006]

Reloader 17 and moly or hex boron might get you 2850-2900 fps. But 3k is asking a lot. One thing I noticed about the 30-06 after extensive load testing is, 2750 fps with a 180ish bullet is all I'm gonna get reliably. And it's been that way for about 100 years....

 

[RockyMtnMT]

We loaded my Uncle's Browning A-bolt 22" barrel 30-06 with the 181g Hammer Hunter with 57g H4350 for a vel of 2830fps. Another 4" of barrel may give 25 fps per inch. Would get you very close to your desired vel. Generally because of the PDR design on the baring surface a bit of vel is gained due to less friction in the bore allowing a bit more powder and vel. HBN coating will take this farther yet.

Steve

 

[Boozer]

Alright... let's just throw out my comment on the 3000fps for the velocity. After doing lots of research, I'm not finding anyone that's can getting there. y'all are right as usual... for the record I've almost made it with the H4350, but QL told me it was waaay over SAAMI spec pressure...

So let's hear from someone who has tried the 4955. I know it's still pretty new, but surely someone has tried it. Not sure how much slower the 7977 is, but it is listed right next to the 4955 on my hodgdon manual, but the 7977 is showing about 175 fps slower than the 4955, which is the wrong direction.

you ******** are making me whish that I had AI'd my rifle when I had it rebarreled. It sounds like a 300 win mag on a diet.

Thanks,

BB

 

[MudRunner2005]

After reading a bunch of internet hoopla, I was not a huge believer in the .30-06 AI...Until I built one. I already had 2 Ackleys at the time, so I was already aware of all the benefits of the Ackley case design, and the 40º shoulder and the low wall taper. So if I built an '06, it would definitely be an AI version over the regular Springfield version, just for the case benefits, if nothing else. I was getting components together to build my .280 AI, and then a buddy of mine told me had gotten a new factory Remington take-off 26" heavy .308 Win barrel and wasn't going to use it because it was a 1:12 twist, and he only wanted what he paid for it ($50). So, my .280 AI got put on hold, and I decided to build a .30-06 AI instead, since all the parts were there.

I was never a fan of the .30-06. My uncle has used one my entire life, along with most of the hunters I know, and so have probably 50% of the hunters in Alabama. You go to just about any hunting camp and I bet at least 1/2 of them are using a .30-06, and 1/4 of the rest are shooting a .270, and the rest a mixture of magnum and other random cartridges.

So anyway, my smith told me that since I was already aware of the gains of AI'ing a cartridge, since he had already built me a .25-06 AI and a .300 Ackley, that I would notice only a small velocity increase in my .30-06 AI... So, I still went ahead with it. And after forming cases, and doing some load workup, this thing is WELL over standard .30-06 velocities. Granted, I'm pushing them to the ragged edge of sanity, but I am not seeing any excess pressure signs other than slightly flattened primers. And my cases still look good after several firings. I have noticed that the Ackley Improved cases seem to handle pressure better. But when you do find the max pressure, you're on a razor's edge between being fine, and over pressure. The signs don't seem to appear like they do in normal case designs, where you can see gradual pressure signs. The Ackleys you go 1/2-grain too hot, and you're blowing primers.

So, that being said, just be careful, but if you do your due-diligence, and slowly work up in .1 or .2 increments (which is a good idea when dealing with ANY wildcat cartridge that does not have any published load data with modern powders and bullets), you can get some great velocities at non-excess pressure levels with slow burning powder and 185's in the .30-06 AI.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

After reading a bunch of internet hoopla, I was not a huge believer in the .30-06 AI...Until I built one. I already had 2 Ackleys at the time, so I was already aware of all the benefits of the Ackley case design, and the 40º shoulder and the low wall taper. So if I built an '06, it would definitely be an AI version over the regular Springfield version, just for the case benefits, if nothing else. I was getting components together to build my .280 AI, and then a buddy of mine told me had gotten a new factory Remington take-off 26" heavy .308 Win barrel and wasn't going to use it because it was a 1:12 twist, and he only wanted what he paid for it ($50). So, my .280 AI got put on hold, and I decided to build a .30-06 AI instead, since all the parts were there.

I was never a fan of the .30-06. My uncle has used one my entire life, along with most of the hunters I know, and so have probably 50% of the hunters in Alabama. You go to just about any hunting camp and I bet at least 1/2 of them are using a .30-06, and 1/4 of the rest are shooting a .270, and the rest a mixture of magnum and other random cartridges.

So anyway, my smith told me that since I was already aware of the gains of AI'ing a cartridge, since he had already built me a .25-06 AI and a .300 Ackley, that I would notice only a small velocity increase in my .30-06 AI... So, I still went ahead with it. And after forming cases, and doing some load workup, this thing is WELL over standard .30-06 velocities. Granted, I'm pushing them to the ragged edge of sanity, but I am not seeing any excess pressure signs other than slightly flattened primers. And my cases still look good after several firings. I have noticed that the Ackley Improved cases seem to handle pressure better. But when you do find the max pressure, you're on a razor's edge between being fine, and over pressure. The signs don't seem to appear like they do in normal case designs, where you can see gradual pressure signs. The Ackleys you go 1/2-grain too hot, and you're blowing primers.

So, that being said, just be careful, but if you do your due-diligence, and slowly work up in .1 or .2 increments (which is a good idea when dealing with ANY wildcat cartridge that does not have any published load data with modern powders and bullets), you can get some great velocities at non-excess pressure levels with slow burning powder and 185's in the .30-06 AI.

There isn't any such thing as on the edge of over pressure. You are either over 60Kpsi (I'll give you 65Kpsi in a strong modern action) or you are not. If you think you are on the "razor's edge" you are likely over 70Kpsi already, as most decent brass will not deform a bit until you have passed around 70Kpsi. My old 7stw wouldn't even deform brass at 75Kpsi when I had a strain gauge on her.
The safety margins get very thin when you push a rifle. The action may take it, but the primer may not; the brass may not either if thinned by a few firings. The throat of your rifle will burn out quicker too if the pressure is higher. I will go to a bigger cartridge every time and let her loaf along. You have to pay to play in this game if you want performance. Cheat the system by pushing a given cartridge and you will eventually get burned.
As to the '06 AI... It is smoke and mirrors... plain and simple. With the shoulder angle being the primary capacity gain, you are only gaining a couple of percent case capacity. You will gain velocity at 1/2 the case capacity increase at equal pressure; an extra inch of barrel on a standard '06 will likely gain as much or more speed. The steeper shoulder angle limiting bolt thrust is where you get your gains here, not case capacity. Shoot a '06 like a '06 and get a 300mag. if you want more.
I've got a '06 a 300win, and two 300rum rifles. They all have their place. I run 150's at 2900 or 165's at 2820 in the '06, 165's at 3250 in the 300win, and either 180's at 3300 or 225's at 3,000 in the 300rum rifles. I don't always want a 30cal. with the bark of the rum; I go to my '06 for that. My 300win is a good all around mid range deer slayer; she has more deer on her than my other rifles combined at present.

 

[MudRunner2005]

There isn't any such thing as on the edge of over pressure. You are either over 60Kpsi (I'll give you 65Kpsi in a strong modern action) or you are not. If you think you are on the "razor's edge" you are likely over 70Kpsi already, as most decent brass will not deform a bit until you have passed around 70Kpsi. My old 7stw wouldn't even deform brass at 75Kpsi when I had a strain gauge on her.
The safety margins get very thin when you push a rifle. The action may take it, but the primer may not; the brass may not either if thinned by a few firings. The throat of your rifle will burn out quicker too if the pressure is higher. I will go to a bigger cartridge every time and let her loaf along. You have to pay to play in this game if you want performance. Cheat the system by pushing a given cartridge and you will eventually get burned.
As to the '06 AI... It is smoke and mirrors... plain and simple. With the shoulder angle being the primary capacity gain, you are only gaining a couple of percent case capacity. You will gain velocity at 1/2 the case capacity increase at equal pressure; an extra inch of barrel on a standard '06 will likely gain as much or more speed. The steeper shoulder angle limiting bolt thrust is where you get your gains here, not case capacity. Shoot a '06 like a '06 and get a 300mag. if you want more.
I've got a '06 a 300win, and two 300rum rifles. They all have their place. I run 150's at 2900 or 165's at 2820 in the '06, 165's at 3250 in the 300win, and either 180's at 3300 or 225's at 3,000 in the 300rum rifles. I don't always want a 30cal. with the bark of the rum; I go to my '06 for that. My 300win is a good all around mid range deer slayer; she has more deer on her than my other rifles combined at present.

Yeah, I wasn't telling him to push it like I do with mine. I was just saying that if you get a good chamber that handles the pressures a bit better than others, you can get near .300WM velocities out of it. I have all the gradual steps for .30 caliber rifles (.308 Win, .30-06 AI, .300WM, .300 Ackley), but sometimes it's fun to push them a bit to see what they can really do, instead of always being a "by-the-book" guy.

Granted, if you're inexperienced with wildcats and reloading, you can really hurt yourself or others, so I DO NOT recommend that route. The only reason I do, is because I fully understand the risks involved and realize that if something happens, it's my own fault. Plus, I've never been a "leave well-enough alone" kind of person. I always want to customize, modify, push things harder, and make things better. Been doing it with vehicles and motorcycles my whole life.

So, yes, like Lefty said, if you want .300WM velocities, it's best just to get a .300WM and be happy with it. But my post was simply to state my experiences, which has proven that you CAN push a .30-06 AI at ~3,000 fps with a 185gr bullet...Even though it may not be the smartest thing I've ever done. But, mine handles it well, and my brass keeps lasting for many reloads, so I'll keep doing what works for me.

But once again, I strongly do not recommend anyone try pushing a cartridge this hard.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Yeah, I wasn't telling him to push it like I do with mine. I was just saying that if you get a good chamber that handles the pressures a bit better than others, you can get near .300WM velocities out of it. I have all the gradual steps for .30 caliber rifles (.308 Win, .30-06 AI, .300WM, .300 Ackley), but sometimes it's fun to push them a bit to see what they can really do, instead of always being a "by-the-book" guy.

Granted, if you're inexperienced with wildcats and reloading, you can really hurt yourself or others, so I DO NOT recommend that route. The only reason I do, is because I fully understand the risks involved and realize that if something happens, it's my own fault. Plus, I've never been a "leave well-enough alone" kind of person. I always want to customize, modify, push things harder, and make things better. Been doing it with vehicles and motorcycles my whole life.

So, yes, like Lefty said, if you want .300WM velocities, it's best just to get a .300WM and be happy with it. But my post was simply to state my experiences, which has proven that you CAN push a .30-06 AI at ~3,000 fps with a 185gr bullet...Even though it may not be the smartest thing I've ever done. But, mine handles it well, and my brass keeps lasting for many reloads, so I'll keep doing what works for me.

But once again, I strongly do not recommend anyone try pushing a cartridge this hard.

Sorry Muddy, didn't mean to back you into a corner a bit like I did.

The '06 ai has one thing going for it that I didn't mention. If you want to run a non-standard throat (very long) like a few do in their '06, you should re-chamber to ai to keep your ammo away from a standard throat chamber. You can get a bit of usable capacity in this cartridge by long seating pills, and the ai case keeps this ammo from becoming a rifle killer in a standard chamber. You still will not pass 300win/wsm speeds, but you may get to around 1/2 way between the '06 and 300win. That aint a bad place to be if you don't want heavy recoil but still need decent performance.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

My next rifle will be a 30-06. I go back and forth on the AI. Right now I think I will leave it standard. That way if things ever get rough, I can share ammo from rifle to rifle. Loading can be done so easy for the '06. Fill it to the neck with 4831 or the like and seat a 180g bullet. Your good to go. The '06 is the ultimate in versatility.

It also offers you an 800y precision tool and only uses less than 60g of powder to do so. The '06 has been the standard that all others are compared to for so long that it is just not sexy anymore.

Steve