Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
J E Custom---Glad you have seen what I've seen more than once with a bow! What you say is true, but I hate to hear anyone mention head shot attempts. IMHO it's too risky on a small moving target!
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223 for Deer
- Thread starter muddycreek
- Start date
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Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
Very true because a shot in the *** even with a .338 won't immediately kill an elk! Proper shot placement WITH a caliber of the proper size and shooting the proper bullet are all keys to a quick, humane kill on anything!!!
texascowboy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2011
- Messages
- 5
I used a 223 for my first 2 deer one was shot with military surplus fmj at 150 yards, the deer ran 20 yards and dropped the next was shot with winchester ballistic tip at 75 yards in the spine and dropped him in his tracks. if you're a good enough shot i dont see why not to use one gun)
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
FYI the FMJ isn't even allowed as a game bullet in most jurisdictions!!!
Texascowboy- thanks for helping validate my point.First of all I am assuming that MuddyCreek is not an illiterate moron and that he will read the hunting regs for the area he hunts. Where I hunt it is perfectly legal to use 223 fmjs and many people do, including myself for probably 20 years. I am not saying he should use larger caliber fmjs on deer as they do not destabilize anywhere near as dramatically as 223 does[I know because I tried it briefly] although even they would work with strictly brain or spine shots at close range. Just trying to add to his body of knowledge. Main things to remember are that velocity needs to be high enough so 200 yards is probably a good limit, depending on barrel length and how well you can shoot. I personally have killed many at 300 yards and some maybe a little farther with this inexpensive ammo.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
What point did he validate? IF you're talking about the use of FMJs, there are few places that allow them for hunting big game.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
And what state might that be if I may ask?
FAL Shot
Well-Known Member
FMJ bullets are just fine for shooting deer, if you KNOW what you are doing. A guy here in Montana uses M855/SS109 bullets for deer hunting BUT he uses the right type of rifle with the right twist rate. That means 9" twist and a minimum of 20" barrel and maximum ranges of 200 yards.
M195 bullets should use a twist rate of 12" or 14", depending. This is to get yaw for devastating results. The M855 will snap at the cannelure after yaw and give two wound channels about 6"-8" of penetration. Eugene Stoner and Fabrique Nationale designed two devastating FMJ systems for killing. You have to use them just as intended in the proper type rifles, which even the US military didn't get right in the case of the M855/SS109.
If you are the type of idiot that uses V-Max and Varmint Ballist Tips for body shots on deer, then you are too much of an idiot to PROPERLY use FMJ bullets in all likelihood. Stick with the 60-grain Nosler Partition as Nosler made it about as idiot proof as any bullet has ever been.
200 yards is a good maximum range for a .223 Rem on deer of large size, providing you have been varmint hunting and KNOW you can put the bullet EXACTLY where it needs to go. People who just pick up a .223 Rem and go deer hunting with any old bullet are the reson for saying it isn't adequate, and in THEIR case it is absolutely true.
My .223 Rem is 9" twist, 24" heavy barrel, and it stabilizes 75-grain Swift Scirocco II bullets and is very sub-MOA. It is definitely qualified as a deer and antelope rifle if I do my job properly.
The average black rifle .223 Rem user I see at the shooting range is not qualified to hunt big game with their 16" carbine for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact they can't hit diddly squat at 200 yards, besides the fact they know diddly about bullets. Their purpose in life is to provide me with once-fired brass for my varmint hunting purposes, so I encourage their wasteful practices. The average idiot that called me wanting to buy my Colt AR-15 upper was not even aware that AR-15 rifles had an upper and lower receiver. They had absolutely zero knowledge that my HBAR flattop upper was far superior to that 16" carbine upper most ammo blasters end up buying if you intend to hunt with it. A guy with common sense finally bought the upper and knew what he was getting.
Eskimos in Alaska have been killing polar bears with M193 FMJ bullets for years, but they take head shots and know how to shoot and take advantage of the yaw. The amount of ammo the average black rifle user wastes in an afternoon at the range is probably more than they hunt with all year.
M195 bullets should use a twist rate of 12" or 14", depending. This is to get yaw for devastating results. The M855 will snap at the cannelure after yaw and give two wound channels about 6"-8" of penetration. Eugene Stoner and Fabrique Nationale designed two devastating FMJ systems for killing. You have to use them just as intended in the proper type rifles, which even the US military didn't get right in the case of the M855/SS109.
If you are the type of idiot that uses V-Max and Varmint Ballist Tips for body shots on deer, then you are too much of an idiot to PROPERLY use FMJ bullets in all likelihood. Stick with the 60-grain Nosler Partition as Nosler made it about as idiot proof as any bullet has ever been.
200 yards is a good maximum range for a .223 Rem on deer of large size, providing you have been varmint hunting and KNOW you can put the bullet EXACTLY where it needs to go. People who just pick up a .223 Rem and go deer hunting with any old bullet are the reson for saying it isn't adequate, and in THEIR case it is absolutely true.
My .223 Rem is 9" twist, 24" heavy barrel, and it stabilizes 75-grain Swift Scirocco II bullets and is very sub-MOA. It is definitely qualified as a deer and antelope rifle if I do my job properly.
The average black rifle .223 Rem user I see at the shooting range is not qualified to hunt big game with their 16" carbine for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact they can't hit diddly squat at 200 yards, besides the fact they know diddly about bullets. Their purpose in life is to provide me with once-fired brass for my varmint hunting purposes, so I encourage their wasteful practices. The average idiot that called me wanting to buy my Colt AR-15 upper was not even aware that AR-15 rifles had an upper and lower receiver. They had absolutely zero knowledge that my HBAR flattop upper was far superior to that 16" carbine upper most ammo blasters end up buying if you intend to hunt with it. A guy with common sense finally bought the upper and knew what he was getting.
Eskimos in Alaska have been killing polar bears with M193 FMJ bullets for years, but they take head shots and know how to shoot and take advantage of the yaw. The amount of ammo the average black rifle user wastes in an afternoon at the range is probably more than they hunt with all year.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
If the FMJ is such a killer, why do most states outlaw them and since they are legal to use in Montana with your .223 why aren't you using them for your deer hunting? I really find it ridiculous that Montana outlaws game cams during the hunting season (I don't use them!), but allows small calibers like you're talking about for big game! Thank God most probably leave them in their safe and use a bigger and better choice. A 22lr in the eye of a bull or bear at short distance will kill him, but who goes hunting with one!!!
Ignorance, poor marksmanship, and dogmatic propaganda have all played a role in inhibiting the use of 223 FMJs. I have seen deer and deer sized animals hit in marginally lethal areas of their anatomy with everything from 12 ga. slugs to magnum centerfire rifles to broadhead arrows travel hundreds of yards or even miles and were sometimes not even recovered. Knowledge and skill obtained from decades of hunting and shooting make me believe that many people need more practice, not a larger bore diameter.
