22-250AI or 22 creed

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by 86alaskan, Feb 3, 2018.

  1. frequent misser

    frequent misser Well-Known Member

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    I have had 5 22 creed barrels chambered. I started with a 22 cheetah which is a 22-243 essentially. I did not like the short neck or case growth I got. The 22-250 ai is very similar to the creed with light bullets but with the heavies the creed case walks away from it. I run rl26 and h4350 with heavies. My 26" runs 3540 with 80 jlks. I like being able to neck down creed brass and roll. I have 10 firings on some brass that has yet to be trimmed. I trim to 1.915 and don' worry about it again untill I'm scaring 1.930. 3200 with a 95 should be plenty doable and most likely lower pressure. The 90s were rather finicky, I'll be interested to see what the consensus is on the 95s.
     
  2. Creedmoor shooter

    Creedmoor shooter Well-Known Member

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    I thought I wanted a 22-250AI with a 7 twist....... that 22 creed is sounding better all the time:)
     
  3. B23

    B23 Well-Known Member

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    When Alpha Munitions gets their 22 Creedmoor brass in full production, I see the 22 Creedmoor becoming VERY popular. Top quality brass that you can just load and go, what's not to like about that combination.
     
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  4. benchracer

    benchracer Well-Known Member

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    For the 22 Creedmoor shooters, what is your actual fired case capacity? I am seeing capacity stated @ 52 grains, is that an accurate figure?

    Here is why I am asking:

    My fired 22-250 brass measures 45.5 grains. From what I can determine, the AI version gains about 10%, which would put AI case capacity around 50 grains. If those numbers are accurate, the claims of 22 Creedmoor running off and leaving the 22-250 AI are setting off my BS detector. No way is that happening on a 2 grain difference (approx. 4%, which translates to about a 1% velocity gain) in case capacity, especially when the 22-250 is SAAMI spec'd @ 65k psi.

    I see a lot of folks making a big deal about fire forming. Since both cartridges are handloader's cartridges, there is no factory ammo involved. Load development for any serious accuracy involves once-fired brass. Ergo, regardless of whether or not one is moving the shoulder or removing case taper, BOTH cases are being fireformed prior to load development. I am seeing quite a few 22 Creedmoor shooters who are starting out with 22-250 brass, which strongly suggests there is very little difference in potential. Moreover, 22-250 AI can utilize factory 22-250 ammo, which is an option not presently available with the Creedmoor.

    While I have no doubt the 22 Creedmoor is/will be an excellent cartridge, the claims being made about this cartridge strike me as a continuation of the Creedmoor Kool-Aid.
     
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  5. parshal

    parshal Well-Known Member

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    Here is a 22-250 Lapua on the left and once-fired in a 22 Creedmoor on the right. I've not measured H20 capacity but 39 grains of R26 in the 22-250 is up the the body/shoulder and I can fit 47 grains of R26 in the 22 Creed case.

    Oh, and you can easily fire 22-250 in a 22 Creedmoor. My buddy did it with his. I don't have a 22-250 so I have no loaded ammo around for it. Otherwise, I would. My fireform load is oh so accurate at 2851 fps with the 82 Berger.

    Using 6 Creed brass it's a one stroke neck size and you have your 22 Creed brass. No real fireforming involved.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  6. benchracer

    benchracer Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about 22-250 AI capacity vs 22 Creedmoor, not the standard 22-250. Your saying that you can fire standard 22-250 ammo in a Creedmoor chamber undermines your claim of superiority for the Creed vs 22-250 AI. If that is possible, there is no way that there is a nickel's worth of difference between the two.

    And, yes, there IS fireforming involved. If you do your load development on virgin brass, your powder charges and velocities WILL differ from once fired brass. If you are doing load development with ONCE-FIRED brass, you ARE fireforming!
     
  7. B23

    B23 Well-Known Member

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    It appears as though a 22 Creedmoor is about equal to a 22-250AI then. This would explain why I can't ever get an answer from 22 Creedmoor shooters as to what their case capacity is. Guess they don't want anyone to know it's basicly no more than a 22-250AI which is only about 3-4 grains, measured in water, more than a standard 22-250.

    benchracer, I think we are in agreement on the capabilities of a 22 Creedmoor running away from the 22-250ai, especially since they appear to be nearly equal to one another in case capacity.

    You can't hotrod the bejeezus out of one, but not the other, then claim how much faster it shoots and I think that happens a lot.
     
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  8. Farmerbrown32

    Farmerbrown32 Well-Known Member

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    Well said sir. i have 3 22-250ai barrels over the years. one 1-14 twist and shot the 55 vmax over 4k and a 1-8 and now a 1-9 twist. shoot the 75 amax at 3350 out of a 24 inch tube. they are extremely accurate both with fireforming and full house loads and are extremely good at killing just about anything you aim them at. to me i dont even care about fireforming in the least. they are accurate and still kill just as well. shit you only need what, maybe 100-200 brass at the most anyway. form them and your done for a long time. the AI and the Creed are the same damn thing and either one will be a great varmint gun. pick one and run.
     
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  9. parshal

    parshal Well-Known Member

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    I just measured water capacity of the two pieces of brass in my previous post. The 22 Creed brass holds 7.8 grains more water. 44 grains for the 22-250 and 51.8 for the 22 Creed. I don't have 22-250AI brass to measure side by side with these but those numbers are basically what Benchracer extrapolated.

    And, to be clear, I'm not claiming any superiority of the 22 Creed. I have no experience shooting a 22-250, 22-250AI, 22-243 or 22-284. I'm only sharing my experience with two 22 Creedmoors and trying to provide the data that people are asking for.

    Benchracer, how does being able to fire 22-250 loads in the Creedmoor undermine any credibility? I'm a little lost on that one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  10. 86alaskan

    86alaskan Well-Known Member

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    One thing I'm thinking about too is when most barrels seem to level off velocity wise. Most of the time I've read that it's 100-200 rds down and the velocity speeds up and levels off. That's the perfect amount of time to fire form AI brass and get a good feel for what the rifle will do for you.
     
  11. parshal

    parshal Well-Known Member

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    In the essence of clarity, here are the loads I've personally measured over the Magnetospeed. I have no idea what the deal is with the huge velocity gain with the 80 grain ELD-M. I've not tested any more since I have so many of the Bergers.

    77 Grain
    R26 39 Sierra TMK 2851
    4831SC 45 Sierra TMK 3320
    MRP 45 Sierra TMK 3545

    80 Grain
    R26 48 ELD-M 3650
    R26 49 ELD-M 3750

    82 Grain
    4831SC 45.5 Berger LR 3517
    R26 45.5 Berger LR 3540
    MRP 45 Berger LR 3400
    MRP 46 Berger LR 3515 (good 100 horrible 200 yards)
     
  12. Creedmoor shooter

    Creedmoor shooter Well-Known Member

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    The 22-250 AI is going to have a slight edge in capacity. The difference between the 22 creed and the 22-250AI is basically shoulder angle and I believe the 22-250 AI has a case oal of 1.900 while the creed is 1.910. The 40° shoulder of the Ackley will give it a slight advantage in capacity to the creeds 30°. I'll have to measure one of my dad's Ackleys h20 capacity
     
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  13. B23

    B23 Well-Known Member

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    That sure seems like a huge gain in case that size, are you sure about those numbers?

    Most 22-250AI are generally between 46.3 and 48gr of water. Gaining 7.8gr water more case capacity is a significant increase in just about any case, let alone a case the size of the 22-250. I'm not trying to call you out but something just isn't adding up here, unless you have a very oversized chamber. Heck, a regular 6.5 Creedmoor only holds about 53.5gr water and thats with a 6.5 diameter neck.
     
  14. parshal

    parshal Well-Known Member

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    I weighed them one right after another. If my scale is off it would show on the 22-250 case, too. Whether the actual capacity is correct or not the difference between the two would be very accurate.