1moa or half moa guaranteed rifles... worth anything or just a gimmick?

[Bang4theBuck]

Well, I can tell you about the downside of an "Accuracy Gaurantee". I bought a WBY Vanguard 'Range Certified' in 300 Wby
I bought it for the additional accuracy that it was supposed to have over the std model, and for the upgraded trigger.
I am a hand loader, and figured if they could guarantee 1moa out of the box, I should be able to cut that in half with hand loads. This was not the case, if fact the rifle wouldn't shoot under 1MOA consistently with anything I put through it, including that crazy expensive WBY ammo. I sent the rifle back and weatherby sent it back to me stating that it shot .92 moa with factory WBY 150 grain spritzer load and thus was not their problem. That was one of the only loads from Weatherby that I did not try. I didnt buy a 300 WBY to shoot 150 grain bullets. I ended up having to trade it in on something else as it was not liking anything that loaded for it....Took a bath on that deal....no more Weatherby for me!

 

[FURMAN]

Well, I can tell you about the downside of an "Accuracy Gaurantee". I bought a WBY Vanguard 'Range Certified' in 300 Wby
I bought it for the additional accuracy that it was supposed to have over the std model, and for the upgraded trigger.
I am a hand loader, and figured if they could guarantee 1moa out of the box, I should be able to cut that in half with hand loads. This was not the case, if fact the rifle wouldn't shoot under 1MOA consistently with anything I put through it, including that crazy expensive WBY ammo. I sent the rifle back and weatherby sent it back to me stating that it shot .92 moa with factory WBY 150 grain spritzer load and thus was not their problem. That was one of the only loads from Weatherby that I did not try. I didnt buy a 300 WBY to shoot 150 grain bullets. I ended up having to trade it in on something else as it was not liking anything that loaded for it....Took a bath on that deal....no more Weatherby for me!

Ya, weatherby was one of the offenders I was referring to. The reason why they have different levels of "guarantee" is because most wont cut it. That should tell you something.

 

[packgoatguy]

I have a cooper with at the 1/2 MOA Guarantee. Sub 1/2 MOA (.35) was very easily achieved with handholds, never tried factory rounds. I feel pretty confident that this is a real guarantee. My Sako finnlight has a 1 MOA 5 shot guarantee. It achieves this easily with multiple factory loads. All I know is that in my experience its for real.

I don't disagree with you. There are lots of factory rifles that will hit half MOA or better with the right handload work up, focusing on the right accuracy node... testing out different powders and bullets, etc. The response I got from Fierce even mentioned that I should likely be able to get the half MOA performance out of my preferred bullet if I hand loaded it... HOWEVER if you read their disclaimers, as well as any of the manufactures like Christensen and others, you void their warranty completely if you use Handloaded ammo... so these HalfMOA guarantee has to be made with Factory ammo... or else if violates their own terms.

 

[packgoatguy]

So can I safely assume you anit- guarantee guys are shooting cheap rifles? I think if you are paying 3k plus for a rifle it ---- well better have a guarantee. If you are ok with shelling out that much money for a rifle from a manufacturer not confident enough for a guarantee then have at it. I can pretty much guarantee that once in a while the guys with guarantees will let one slip out that does not meet the standard. The difference is they will take care of you. Others will just say oh well or it meets our 1.5 moa guarantee. Either way like I said it is your money. I know where mine is going.

Well, my problem is that with a $3k-$4k rifle, and a "halfMOA" guarantee... that the guarantee ONLY counts for the ONE particular factory load they cherry picked to meet their halfMOA criteria... For Fierce, they pretty much use the Nosler Accubonds. For the 28Nosler I was looking at, I was told that "90%" of their rifles shoot the 160gr Accubond at half MOA... so that is what they use for their testing.

However, what if I would want to use the 175gr ABLR, or 162gr ELDX... If the rifle doesnt like those factory loads, I am left using a bullet I don't prefer, or handloading to find my own sweetspot, which inherently violates the warranty anyways.

 

[Beaver10]

There's been a lot of discussion about .5 MOA and 1 MOA lately. Yes, a lot of guys have rifles, both custom and some unbelievable production rifles that will produce 1/2 or even less with 3-5 round set. But, the question is can a rifle produce these numbers over a 10 shot set?

Many who have a sub moa rifle, found they didn't even have a 1 MOA rifle, but closer to a 1.5-2.0 MOA rifle, excluding called fliers when 10 rounds where fired. This with proper cooling, etc.

I'm speaking from information coming from verified military snipers, ex military snipers. PRS shooters and triggermen who can flat out shoot.

This suggestion above, which was verified to the horror of guys with $3-$4k builds when they went to the range to prove this was incorrect. A sampling of many rifles shot by experienced shooters showed that if you have a rifle after 10 rounds fired that produced 1 MOA, you have a very accurate rifle.

Footnote: This angered a lot of hunters who said who the heck cares about a 10/set? I shoot 3-5 and I'm good to go...If your curious about your rifle and it's accuracy. Shoot 10-12 rounds and see what you get.

 

[Mike 338]

If an accuracy guarantee is nothing more than marketing hype, then why doesn't everyone do it? I can tell you from personal experience, that guns that were marketed to be extremely accurate, may utterly fail in the accuracy department and the manufacturer may well choose to remind you that there is no accuracy guarantee. If we can think back that far, before Tikka, most hunting rifles grouped around 2 moa and every reputable gun writer was telling us how that was "hunting accuracy" and perfectly acceptable. Well, some of those manufacturers haven't changed much but others have. I'd just as soon have a guarantee as not.

 

[Alibiiv]

Well, that is what I am saying that the folks at Fierce DID tell me... that since they send the rifle with a target showing the 3 shot group, their Accuracy Guarantee has ALREADY been met... and there is no FUTURE guarantee of repeatability of that accuracy. I kind of wonder if they don't know the definition of the word "guarantee"... or maybe I don't...

My thoughts are that if FIERCE does send a three-shot target, and they don't tell you what they used to get that target, what is the sense in buying a rifle with that kind of a guarantee; it's time to look at another gun manufacturer. As for the hype on guarantee of shooting sub MOA, I'm thinking that the guarantee is only as good as the manufacturer who made the rifle, and I can say that whether the rifle is mass produced or a custom gun. I read a thread here where a guy bought a "used, unfired custom build" from a seller on the forum. The rifle didn't shoot (as in go bang FTF), he went back to the gunsmith who built the rifle and the smith wouldn't give him the time of day. When I buy something I always try to Google reviews on a particular dealer and/or product before buying. It is not the total catch all, however not a bad place to start.

 

[sika64]

Well, that is what I am saying that the folks at Fierce DID tell me... that since they send the rifle with a target showing the 3 shot group, their Accuracy Guarantee has ALREADY been met... and there is no FUTURE guarantee of repeatability of that accuracy. I kind of wonder if they don't know the definition of the word "guarantee"... or maybe I don't...

They guarantee the rifle can, Not everyone behind that rifle can. There lies the problem

 

[LongBomber]

At least Fierce does tell you what they used. They use alot of barnes vortx and nosler accubond ammo from what I have seen. Or in my case (26N) a handload with the 140vld-h and 84.9gr of us869, didnt tell me the fps or oal of the load.

The reality of most of these semi-custom (Fierce, proof, hs precision etc) rifles are mechanically capable of 1/2moa accuracy. Wether a particular bullet/powder combo will make that in the particular rifle a person has no way of knowing. My fierce was sent with the 140vld-h target, and can meet Fierce's standard with several other bullets, but there are a couple it can't.

Personally I count a rifle as under 1/2moa gun if it can put 10 into 1/2moa at 300 yards in good conditions (ie consistent light winds), from bipod or bags, not a full machine rest.
I have yet to see a factory load in a factory rifle meet that standard. 10 shots into 1 moa at 300 is a tough standard to meet for a factory combo.

 

[cohunt]

Usually a guarantee from a particular rifle is under controlled conditions (inside, climate controlled) with the rifle locked in a shooting rest, with 1 particular type of ammo. This takes all shooter error and environmental factors out of the equation.
I think there are alot of rifles out there capable of sub moa, even sub 1/2 moa with the right conditions...this does not mean the buyer can hold this "accuracy" in the field each and every time.

I find that "realistic" accuracy claims are worthy of their claim. Some of the custom manufactures actually shoot their rifle off of bags or bipod in field conditions before they ship to make sure they are actually capable of their claims. These are the ones I tend to believe in.

People must remember that the "sub moa" claims are for the rifle and not any guarantee of what the buyer can actually shoot.

 

[KyCarl]

I bought a rifle with a 1/2 inch at 100 yards Guarantee. The builder sent a target that gives about all the information and I believe him??

 

[DJ Fergus]

I don't disagree with any one that a $3k rifle should shoot great. And I'm not saying that it wouldn't. But if you purchase one and it doesn't shoot good with factory ammo, that's likely where your frustrations will begin. If a fierce rife is what I wanted, then I would buy it and see what it will do. If it doesn't shoot with their prescibed ammo then send it back. But I think that the quest for ultimate accuracy will always lead a person into learning how to handload. And if it's stout recoiling magnum in a light sporting weight rifle you are trying to get 1/2 moa out of, then you are going to have to master your shooting technique and get your mind right to consistently get 1/2 moa.

 

[Guldenator]

My Legendary Arms Works Professional 6.5 Creed came with a 1 moa guarantee. Didn't and doesn't come anywhere close to moa. The manufacturer wouldn't touch it. They rationalized every excuse in the book. Still the worst consumer experience I have ever had.

 

[Guldenator]

They guarantee the rifle can, Not everyone behind that rifle can. There lies the problem

That is not where the problem always lies.