Bullet penciling question?

lancetkenyon said:

Whoa.....in the other thread.....you stated "target bullets blow up"......so which is it? Blow up or not opening up? Again, you give a poor example of shooter error, not bullet failure. Know your rifle, know your loads, know your game anatomy, know your limitations, know your freezer will be filled.

Click to expand...

He was referring to burger . Burger target Bullets have thicker jackets then their hunting Bullets . Most other target Bullets are normally thinner , he was also referring to longer distances therefore compounding the potential problem .

I think Im pretty well up to speed on how they're made. I designed and made bullets for several years myself.
So let me get this straight. A target bullet has a THICKER jacket which is more apt to make it splatter on the shoulder?
I agree that a Berger has a thicker jacket on their target bullets than their hunting design (which use to be their target bullet) but in general, target bullets have thinner jackets than hunting bullets whether bonded or not. There are other factors that also make a bullet expand including the meplat diameter, the amount of hollow cavity, whether or not its tipped, if it has a lead tip, etc so to generalize about what it takes to make a so called hunting bullet is misleading! I may not be as big a fan as some of Berger bullets, but I do think that when used with common sense, their over all ability to kill at a variety of ranges is better than MOST hunting bullets.
I agree that if ALL shots were taken at under 300 yards, heavier constructed bullets may be better if shot placement is off. The other factor that isnt even being mentioned is muzzle velocity. A thinner skinned bullet shot from a 308 will penetrate much better at 100 yards than the same bullet shot from a RUM. Impact velocity is what really matters.
So again, generalizing which bullet is better is really kind of silly IMO.

Almondgrower said:

Greatwhitehtr:

In my 30 years of hunting , the ONLY Bullets I have seen fail are target Bullets that friends were using . I took a nosler accubond to the extreme one time and I normally would never take a shoulder shot on a big bull elk but a buddy hit it and broke a rear leg low . After tracking it ,I finally found him but he was standing rite on a ledge of a massive deep rocky timber filled canyon that we would have a terrible time getting to him let alone using horses . I needed to anchor him rite there . I shot him with my 30/378 and a 150g accubond @3700 FPS . The bullet blew apart both front shoulders sending baseball size chunks of bone from the on side threw the heart and lungs and a perfect quarter size exit hole dropping the bull rite in his tracks . That is about as Extreme as it gets to test a hunting bullet . All I'm saying is a hunting bullet gives you a wider performance range for unintended events then a target bullet ( may ) . I was somewhat disappointed about a eldx that I shot a deer with tho ..... went threw and lodged in a dirt bank 4' behind , I expected a mushroom of some sort but the lead core was about 6" deeper and the jacket ( like a cup with nothing in it ) was closer to the surface. Vary good chance dirt caused it but I have had friends had similar eldm Bullets do the same thing when recovered in a animal . Worst case is my point hopefully giving the best chance for a clean dispatch , I agree , dead is dead when u hit the vitals but that's shot is not guaranteed . It's up to us as hunters and shooters to know the limits of our setup . A copper bullet shot into a animal @ 1000fps .....definitely a hunting bullet failure for sure

Click to expand...

Yet again, you cited terrible shot placement and call it bullet failure. You also fail to give information about bullet, velocity, and range. This is not BULLET failure, it is SHOOTER failure.
Plus.....why did you shoot someone else's game animal? That is frowned upon in most states. Not sure where you live, so maybe group hunting is allowed. I saw an episode of North Woods Law where two buddies (one was the Warden himself) shot a moose at the same time to help anchor it in place.

Almondgrower said:

Greatwhitehtr:

In my 30 years of hunting , the ONLY Bullets I have seen fail are target Bullets that friends were using . I took a nosler accubond to the extreme one time and I normally would never take a shoulder shot on a big bull elk but a buddy hit it and broke a rear leg low . After tracking it ,I finally found him but he was standing rite on a ledge of a massive deep rocky timber filled canyon that we would have a terrible time getting to him let alone using horses . I needed to anchor him rite there . I shot him with my 30/378 and a 150g accubond @3700 FPS . The bullet blew apart both front shoulders sending baseball size chunks of bone from the on side threw the heart and lungs and a perfect quarter size exit hole dropping the bull rite in his tracks . That is about as Extreme as it gets to test a hunting bullet . All I'm saying is a hunting bullet gives you a wider performance range for unintended events then a target bullet ( may ) . I was somewhat disappointed about a eldx that I shot a deer with tho ..... went threw and lodged in a dirt bank 4' behind , I expected a mushroom of some sort but the lead core was about 6" deeper and the jacket ( like a cup with nothing in it ) was closer to the surface. Vary good chance dirt caused it but I have had friends had similar eldm Bullets do the same thing when recovered in a animal . Worst case is my point hopefully giving the best chance for a clean dispatch , I agree , dead is dead when u hit the vitals but that's shot is not guaranteed . It's up to us as hunters and shooters to know the limits of our setup . A copper bullet shot into a animal @ 1000fps .....definitely a hunting bullet failure for sure

Click to expand...

Light for caliber bullets maybe your issue, as a 150 gr bullet from a 30/375 is extremely light for caliber and on elk as well.

Just a thought.

Only with M855's on some pigs.

Boomflop :
Absolutely , that was back rite when accubond came out shortly after the 30-378 was released and way way before dialing turrets was mainstream ! It was about point blank range , hold dead on till the next county . I now shoot 210g Nosler LRAB . The point was..... that was as of a extreme test as u could get short of shooting a elk threw a cinder block wall and that hunting bullet performed FLAWLESSLY !!

Lancetkenyon:
So which part of :
150g nosler accubond @ 3700 FPS from a 30-378 was confusing or not listed ? I also stated hunting Bullets are designed to be better for worst case unintentional poi

lancetkenyon said:

Whoa.....in the other thread.....you stated "target bullets blow up"......so which is it? Blow up or not opening up? Again, you give a poor example of shooter error, not bullet failure. Know your rifle, know your loads, know your game anatomy, know your limitations, know your freezer will be filled.

Click to expand...

Beat me to it.

I have seen two bergers pencil through and both were from a 257 weatherby under 100 yards 115 berger. I'm not sure if the tips were cleaned out but my friend was not a happy guy. The deer did die but it was the 3rd shot to the neck of the deer that did it

Almondgrower said:

Lancetkenyon:
So which part of :
150g nosler accubond @ 3700 FPS from a 30-378 was confusing or not listed ? I also stated hunting Bullets are designed to be better for worst case unintentional poi

Click to expand...

I watched a cow elk take a 180 Accubond at 80 yards from a 300 WSM running full tilt and it didn't make it into the chest, she ran to just over 600 yards and she caught a Berger behind the shoulder and she collapsed. I wacked a cow center of the shoulder with a 168 Barnes with a 300 WBY bullet did not make it into the chest, my buddy shot a cow with a 165 Barnes bullet did not make it through the shoulder.
Shot a cow elk with a 140 Berger under 300 yards center of the shoulder heavy quartering away, recovered the bullet under the of side hide, elk dead in a few steps, buddy shot a large mid 300's bull through both shoulder with a 243 and 105 Berger under 100 yards, found the bullet under the hide on the of side and he traveled three feet vertically. Buddy shot an alaskan bullet moose with a 6.5x284 and 140 Berger, frontal shot trashed his lungs and heart and we found it in his flank. I can keep going but I"ve shot a lot of elk from a lot of angle testing bullets and I'll take a Berger type bullet ANY day, more of them make it through an elks shoulder than a bonded or mono will, proven again and again!!

I had a good old cup & core 130gr Remington soft point loaded to 3100fps out of a 270w punch straight through a goat at 15 meters, barely a hole either side of the animal, projectile literally passed through everything soft and missed out on hitting anything solid. The bullet was too stout for the little 35kg doe, took a second shot. Sometimes things that you would think work don't, it's that simple.

Almondgrower said:

Lancetkenyon:
So which part of :
150g nosler accubond @ 3700 FPS from a 30-378 was confusing or not listed ? I also stated hunting Bullets are designed to be better for worst case unintentional poi

Click to expand...

Not your follow up shot on someone else's game animal. ANY of the original poor shot placements you cited.

I have only used ONE Berger bullet to shoot a deer. 155 gr OLD Target VLD which is now called their hunting bullet. It was fired from a 30x47 at 2600 fps. Deer was a 130ish lb doe standing almost broad side at 111 yards in a logging road that ran between to East NC cutovers. I placed the bullet into the center of her front shoulder. At the shot she squatted and took off like a race horse into the THICK JUNGLE of a cutover. On the offside of where she was standing it looked like you had taken a quart jar of blood and lung tissue that had been put in a food processor and slung it in a line down the path for about 5 yards. From that spot there was NO BLOOD that I could find and I was on my hands and knees crawling up a game trail because it was so thick into the cutover with green briar and about 8 foot pine trees and mess. I found the deer about 50 yards up the trail. Bullet had hit center of right shoulder and exit was just behind the left shoulder. The exit hole in the hide was so large that I could have dropped a baseball into it without it touching the sides. The deer sloshed on the inside. I guess the reason that I found no blood was there was nothing left to pump any out and it all pooled in the lower chest and did not leak out. Upon processing the deer it's whole front end was destroyed. I went back to using the 125 gr Nosler BT at 2850 fps and with same shoulder shots it does less damage and 99% of the time drops the deer in their tracks so I don't have to crawl around in a cut over.
I have killed hundreds of deer over the past 48 years, did crop damage control for 15 years. I have used about everything from a sharp stick to a 45-70 to kill deer with. I have used numerous makers bullets and styles. One thing I have learned is that stuff happens that you can't explain sometimes. Like in my experience the 7mm Mag is the worst deer caliber I have ever used. I tell people that I can not carry enough flashlight batteries to hunt with one because it takes so long to trail one up in the dark I had to look so long because it ran so far. Did not matter the bullets used if it was not a CNS shot they ran off. Now that was my experience, others swear by the 7mm Mag and say everything they shoot with one is DRT. I used the 168 Sierra Match King in both 30-06 and 308 Win and had pretty good success but every now and then, maybe 1 in 25 or so deer shot there would be no expansion exhibited and every now and then I could not find the deer in the thick jungle about the farm fields that they ran off into and left no blood trail. After seeing some of these bullets that had hit in the berm on the target range I came to the conclusion what must be happening. I would find bullets in the berm that the nose had either just bent over sideways folding back along the side of the bullet or some had just riveted with the nose folding back into it's self. Other would explode on impact and you just saw jacket pieces and some lead scattered. Maybe those occasional Burger pencils are doing the same fold or riveting. If you hunt long enough you will put a bad shot on game and it may or may not be your fault. I have had game move at the instant the trigger broke. When using a 45-70 Sharps copy shooting 420 gr bullets pushed 1400 fps by black powder. I was shooting from a solid rest on sand bags from a shooting house and point of aim was center of the chest on a deer facing me at 111 yards. Same place in road as example above. By the time I fired and the bullet got there the deer put it's head down and the bullet struck just above eye level between the eyes DRT. Last deer I lost was standing broadside just over 200 yards. I was shooting a 25-06 with 117 Sierra Pro Hunters that is DEADLY. Just as the trigger broke the deer turned going away and was struck in the gut. Could not find any blood trail at all and area was so thick you would have to step on a deer to find it. Three days latter it was found because buzzards were on it. I had walked within feet of it without being able to see it. Stuff happens and we can only except it and move on.

Good write up! Ive seen the Sierra matchkings do exactly what you describe with bent noses. they are more susceptible to doing that than a Berger because the angle of attack is less than a Berger, or at least the older ones were.(tangent vs secant) Its not the jacket because Ive used both to make my bullets and the Sierra was actually thinner at the nose.
People have used Match Kings for long range hunting but when the nose bends upon impact they immediately tumble which will cause damage even though it never expanded. Not what I want but can be lethal nonetheless.