180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

[Pdvdh]

I didn't see any bullet fragments. While skinning deer, I heard what sounded like a bullet fragment hitting the concrete floor. Upon investigating the sound, I found it to be a chunk of bone. The leg bone was in many many pieces. But no trace of bullet fragments were found... ...Hope to get some kills on here soon. Go berger!

Did you process/butcher the deer yourself? If you butchered this deer yourself and still found no lead or jacket fragments, then I'll revise my opinion - unless you simply threw both front shoulders away without processing any meat off of them due to bullet damage. I've never butchered an animal that was killed with an expanded Berger VLD without finding multiple lead and or jacket fragments.

 

[oldmossy]

I butchered it myself. I cut away meat from the edges of shoulders that werent bloodshot. Which wasnt much on off side shoulder. I did finger around inside hole some, but didn't try hard to find bullet fragments. I did however find lots of bone fragments. To say there was no bullets fragments may not be true, I just may not of seen them.

 

[Kennibear]

One other possible explanation with a caveat. If the bullet first expanded and formed a mushroom, THEN hit a bone (maybe two?)and broke it, the petals could be stripped by the bone and the remaining shank of the bullet would plow through like a FMJ.
Caveat? Where's the sheared petals?

We should all start packing those portable X-Ray machines the Army Medics tried in VN. The ones powered by a shot gun blank smacking a piezo-electric crystal stack. That would give us better data....


Just kidding....

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well, not sure what to think...

No bullet fragments under the hide? It seems to me that to have a flesh exit hole that size and a much smaller hide exit that some bullet fragments would have to be laying under the hide by the exit.

Only other explanation I can think of is maybe the bullet failed to expand for whatever reason and then tumbled like FMJ's often do, causing the all the damage, then tumbled out the hide in a small hole.

 

[WildRose]

Well, not sure what to think...

No bullet fragments under the hide? It seems to me that to have a flesh exit hole that size and a much smaller hide exit that some bullet fragments would have to be laying under the hide by the exit.

Only other explanation I can think of is maybe the bullet failed to expand for whatever reason and then tumbled like FMJ's often do, causing the all the damage, then tumbled out the hide in a small hole.

Did you catch my prior post about the bullets that expanded so rapidly they essentially turned inside out giving the "penciling" through appearance? I'm still suspicious this is what is happening in at least some of these cases as well.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Did you catch my prior post about the bullets that expanded so rapidly they essentially turned inside out giving the "penciling" through appearance? I'm still suspicious this is what is happening in at least some of these cases as well.

Yes, but how would that explain the large flesh exit and small hide exit?

 

[WildRose]

Yes, but how would that explain the large flesh exit and small hide exit?

Most of the lead and a little bit of the petals were fragmenting wreaking havoc and the remaining jacket and lead which had turned inside out made a slightly larger than caliber exit hole.

I couldn't figure out what was happening till I found the first examples that had lodged in the off side shield after penetrating everything else .

The wounds were very similar to the examples I see on a lot of these mystery "what happened with my VLD".

Some probably are penciling through or tumbling some and then making a linear exit but I think the above is a possible explanation for some of the others.

I'd asked if they had seen any of that in their ballistic testing on the big thread on the subject when the Berger folks were contributing but never got an answer so I'm still just wondering but I do think it's a possibility.

 

[Pdvdh]

To absolutely know that this bullet expanded in classic Berger style (with this high impact velocity) would simply require some probing around the flesh and tissue-damaged bullet path, searching for lead and jacket shrapnel.

I'm certain the bullet didn't pencil thru, solely based on the size of the exit hole thru the hide. If it didn't shrapnel, it at least tumbled.

I think it expanded internally based on the light's out death of the deer. The buck didn't only collapse at bullet impact. He was dead when he hit the ground. The animals I've observed hit with bullets that penciled through had lots of life remaining in them. So much so that an observer wouldn't know whether they'd been hit. Chest shots broadside thru the ribs. All three required an additional killing shot with a bullet that did expand.

 

[WildRose]

Yes, but how would that explain the large flesh exit and small hide exit?

Another thought on your wound channel and exit.

Sometimes a bullet which does not expand and is not badly deformed will cavitate after penetration and then either correct or flip over before exit which would still produce a caliber size or even smaller exit. Remember bullets generally don't cut through the hide they push it till it just won't stretch any more and then the bullet pushes through and this can happen both on entry and exit. I've seen lots and lots of entry wounds smaller than the caliber used and some exit wounds as well.

 

[HuntFarther]

There is no debate on if this bullet opened. It can be debated to death if it tumbled or blew inside and just did not look close enough for jacket fragments. The exit hole is not .284 diameter.

As previously stated this buck didn't twitch or kick, nothing. When I see odd performance from a bullet you have a live animal after the shot. If nothing else staggers long enough to get another shot.

 

[royinidaho]

Just made the connection between this and the video thread w/pics.

I'd be plumb pleased with that bullet's performance.

I did an expansion test awhile back where we put a 115 gr 25 cal VLD through both rear leg bones on a 700 pound boar (already dead and hanging upside down) @ 100 yes w/3060 MV.

Was certain that the bullet would not make it through the second leg. Wrong.

Exit on near side leg

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Entrance on far side leg

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Like said on the other thread, I'd be plumb pleased with the way the bullet performed on Corbin's buck.

 

[oldmossy]

I will make sure next time I do a little better job evaluating the carcass for bullet fragments. Looks like I could of saved you guys some time if I would've had my ducks in a row before presenting this question. Originally, I just thought the bullet didn't expand because of the small exit hole. This based on past experience where i've had baseball size exits with these bullets. After skinning deer, I am completely satisfied with the performance of the bullet.

If nothing else, I guess it gave everyone a little something to talk about. At times, it seems like it's the same thing being talked about over and over on this forum. I appreciate some fresh material. And with hunting seasons drawing to an end, we should have lots of fresh stories,questions,etc coming our way. Can't wait

 

[WildRose]

I will make sure next time I do a little better job evaluating the carcass for bullet fragments. Looks like I could of saved you guys some time if I would've had my ducks in a row before presenting this question. Originally, I just thought the bullet didn't expand because of the small exit hole. This based on past experience where i've had baseball size exits with these bullets. After skinning deer, I am completely satisfied with the performance of the bullet.

If nothing else, I guess it gave everyone a little something to talk about. At times, it seems like it's the same thing being talked about over and over on this forum. I appreciate some fresh material. And with hunting seasons drawing to an end, we should have lots of fresh stories,questions,etc coming our way. Can't wait

Somehow I missed the actual pictures of the exit wound.

Having seen them my bet is that the bullet did expand and peeled back, but did not fragment to any significant degree with overall good weight retention. With that size exit wound showing on the meat with so little blood shot it seems the most likely explanation.

You have shown though how a lack of information leads to more and more room for speculation. Some of us are kind of nuts for really evaluating wounds and if possible recovering bullets just because we hate unanswered questions LOL.

 

[Kennibear]

This thread is chocked full of valuable information on hunting bullets and their performance on big game. This should be mandatory reading for everybody who Hunts!!!

Ditto's to RoyinIdaho. Bullet was text book perfect. Shot was text bock prefect. The young lad had the best outcome I would ever hope for any of my kids on their first big game hunt. Great job!