Interesting article on bear spray vs. bear handgun defense

[Turkeytider]

You people!!....You don`t need sprays!!......You don`t need guns!!!...... You just need to be their bestest buddy!! Just ask Timothy Treadwell ( AKA " The Grizzly Man" )! Oh....Wait.

Upon reflection, this post is in poor taste (accurate perhaps, but in poor taste nonetheless). My apologies to the board.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

Not to bicker...

But... I once fired a high powered rifle bullet within 12" of a threatening grizzly bear's ear from ~30yds distance in an effort to scare it away. He never even blinked. Just continued looking at me like I owed him money. It was as if I'd not fired the shot.

Bears come in all different flavors, and encounters occur under numerous different circumstances. I never expect, or depend on, warning shots to deter a bear. Some will turn and leave. Some, defending a carcass or cubs, will charge the moment a warning shot is fired.

One example: An aquaintence fired a warning shot over the head of large boar brown bear from ~35yds, that was defending a winterkill moose carcass early one spring on Alaska's Kenai Peninsula. The warning shot prompted an instant full-bore charge. He had time for one more shot before the bear flattened him, then crunched his face in his jaws. Only thing saved his life was a 44 Mag revolver in his chest holster. The bear's canines didn't penetrate his brain so he remained fully conscious. Was able to draw and empty the revolver into the underside of the bear by feel, while his face was inside the bear's jaws. He said the bear became still during the firing of the revolver, and a few seconds after the revolver was emptied. Then the bear released his head and walked away. He'd buried the revolver's muzzle into the fur on the underside of the bear. So in addition to the bullets, muzzle gases likely blew up into the bear's torso too. Didn't have the nerve to ask if he would fire another warning shot in a similar scenario...

Based on my experiences and those of other hunters I've talked with, if a bear is aware of my presence, isn't backing down, and is close enough to limit my response time, I fire no warning shots. Brown bear, grizzly bear, or black bear. A lot easier to take out a stationary bear than a charging bear.

Some black bears in the remote wilds of Alaska that rarely encounter people, pose a much greater threat than the average black bear living in populated areas in the States, IMO. They haven't learned to fear people, and the greater threat is from predatory stalk/attack. I experienced a predatory stalk by one such black bear about 20 years ago. He came in directly downwind of me, following my scent trail. Fortunately I was black bear hunting on an Alaskan mountainside at the time. He came into view at ~50 feet, eyes locked onto mine. Continued staring me down as he approached closer. At 20 feet he turned broadside to intimidate and show me how big he was. Shot and killed him at 20 feet, while he was broadside posturing. Mulling over the experience shortly after firing the kill shot, one conclusion was... that wilderness area just became one bear safer. And I couldn't have accomplished that with a can of bear spray.

That's exactly while in bear country the boy , or one similar escorts us, no chance of ambush, a charge maybe but the dog would distract enough for me to bring the Maverick 88 in to action, the dog would no doubt be killed, as these things are dangerous. I think pictures below.

 

[Pdvdh]

That's exactly while in bear country the boy , or one similar escorts us, no chance of ambush, a charge maybe but the dog would distract enough for me to bring the Maverick 88 in to action, the dog would no doubt be killed, as these things are dangerous. I think pictures below.

Understand and agree with the value of a good dog while traipsing around in bear country.

Have a friend lives remotely on Kodiak Island for 40+ years that always keeps a dog by his side. Dogs can sense bear presence before people, and provide early notification of presence of bear. But... the dog needs basic obedience training, or their benefit can be compromised. His dogs were trained to stay by his side. He didn't have to voice commands. Could snap his fingers or motion a hand signal, and his dogs understood and obeyed.

 

[Landis]

All great info! This is a well timed thread for me. In August I will be camping alone in the Wind River Range of WY while my grandson and his bud backpack the CDT. They will each carry a can of bear spray. I will have my 40 cal Glock 23 with Lehigh penetrators in my chest holster and bear spray on my belt. I will be focussed on the WY Cutthroat Slam.
I may start looking at a Glock in 10 mm and test to see if I can handle the additional recoil.

Last time I was exploring and fishing in the Wind River Range we ran upon a Cub Scout group. Their camping spot at Jim Creek had around the edge wire and a battery powered electric fence. I thought this was a great idea. The day before we spied 2 grizzly eating rose hips about half a mile from them next to a blow down area up the hill and across the creek from them.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

Understand and agree with the value of a good dog while traipsing around in bear country.

Have a friend lives remotely on Kodiak Island for 40+ years that always keeps a dog by his side. Dogs can sense bear presence before people, and provide early notification of presence of bear. But... the dog needs basic obedience training, or their benefit can be compromised. His dogs were trained to stay by his side. He didn't have to voice commands. Could snap his fingers or motion a hand signal, and his dogs understood and obeyed.

That dog came from Czech Republic 100% trained to do it all,he wasn't cheap,12K plus shipping. we've been dealing with the same guys there for years, no finer strain, he reacts to Czech language in a millisecond. Hand signals is a given with a dog of this magnitude.

 

[flyguy1]

This guy has been around a while, and he doesn't talk about CNS hits. If it's TLDR, he used 147gr Flat Nose Buffalo Bore in a 9mm, but usually carries a .357. Same behind the shoulder shots as we would use when hunting.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

This guy has been around a while, and he doesn't talk about CNS hits. If it's TLDR, he used 147gr Flat Nose Buffalo Bore in a 9mm, but usually carries a .357. Same behind the shoulder shots as we would use when hunting.

wasn't he on a tv show?

 

[Pdvdh]

This guy has been around a while, and he doesn't talk about CNS hits. If it's TLDR, he used 147gr Flat Nose Buffalo Bore in a 9mm, but usually carries a .357. Same behind the shoulder shots as we would use when hunting.

I watched that video.

Phil's not the average man, and his experiences and recommendations aren't a best fit for the average man, IMO.

There are bears that don't fit his mold of experiences. And I've met some of them.

I understand where he's coming from, based on his long experience as an Alaska bear guide, and the multitude of bear encounters over those years of guiding bear hunters. But felt he's lost some balanced perspective based on his many experiences of shoo-shooing bears away from bear and fishing camps, hunters and fishers, and his remotely located home. I don't think Phil intended his interview to constitute a one size fits all bear defense training session. Ron asked Phil some specific questions and Phil responded to those questions.

The average man entering bear country hasn't had that wealth of interaction and experience, and hasn't repetitively shoo-shooed the same bears out of his back yard, or away from clients during their hunts.

Some folk just stumble into bears while out and about. There's multiple instances of bears attacking, maiming, and killing folk in Alaska while they jog or ride bikes on trails and power line right-of-ways. Sows with cubs and bears camped out on their kills. Bad news bears.

Ron Spomer never asked Phil how many full-blown bear charges he'd stopped with a 9mm pea-shooter.

The bear Phil killed with the 9mm never left a scratch on either of his clients, even though it was right next to them. I didn't consider it a fight-to-the-death charge. Dead serious bears don't charge up to folk, look at them, and trot off. They immediately employ fangs and claws to disable or kill the perceived threat, upon first contact.

 

[dogz]

And what bullet placement did Phil use to finally put a stop to the bruin with the 9?

 

[fta0303]

This guy has been around a while, and he doesn't talk about CNS hits. If it's TLDR, he used 147gr Flat Nose Buffalo Bore in a 9mm, but usually carries a .357. Same behind the shoulder shots as we would use when hunting.

Very good stuff, really enjoyed listening to it. Phil is a likeable person. His stress on the bears ability to learn and adapt was especially interesting - you know they must, but neat to hear examples.

His 9mm experience illustrated one of many possible scenarios. The bear actually exposed his side to Phil, and was not hell bent for leather trying to kill anyone. If a bear is attacking you, not someone else, you probably won't see the side of the bear but the front, and he'll be coming fast and hard. A CNS shot is the only thing that will fold him up right now, which is what you need. In Phil's case, the bear was not charging him, so he had time and a bear that wasn't triggered into attack mode.

A CNS shot may not be possible. Don't let that stop you from shooting! There is an arc (belly down) from inside of shoulder to inside of shoulder that is a recommended target for a bear acoming at you. The head may get in the way, but I'd just try to shoot through it rather than waiting. You may get lucky: a CNS hit or maybe your shot turns the charge. And I think a 9mm hard cast will work regardless. There are instances of people shooting repeatedly into a grizzly's open mouth and killing it (both the instances I'm thinking of involved a DA 44 Mag.)

It came through very strongly from Phil that every bear and bear encounter is different. HIs descriptions of bears in action, trying to fish, surprised, or otherwise occupied showed that the bear isn't always focused on you. He used bear spray to move a non-charging bear away from him and it was successful. He also thought it was suicide to use it when stalking a wounded bear. The wounded bear is like the instinct-triggered attacking bear. A gun is best.

There have been bear attacks in which the chargee was disarmed by the bear. Keeping your handgun on a lanyard will afford you the chance to retrieve your gun if its batted away. Maybe you could still be in the fight. A small precaution that might yield valuable dividends.

Thanks for posting this extremely interesting interview. Worth its weight in gold.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

And what bullet placement did Phil use to finally put a stop to the bruin with the 9?

A buffalo bore 9mm +P+ hardcast will kill a bear, if you're cool enough to hit him,that's what we carry in Montana in our handguns,mine a Glock 19,hers Sig p365,between the dog,the handguns,and the Maverick 88, we'll never become victims,i consider myself cool under fire,having been shot at twice in 15 years,it's a mindset you either have it or don't , doesn't mean a thing just the way you were made. We're heading there in June one week staying in the polebridge cabin ,Glacier in the back 40.Pays to know rich doctors.

 

[Taj]

I also saw this Ron Spomer interview with Phil. Phil is definitely an experienced outdoorsman and guide. I guess his reasoning for carrying a 9 muther-muther as a bear defense gun is his decision to make, but it's hard to imagine it being a first choice for anyone. At least he had the right ammo. You can kill a bear with a .22LR but I think I want a bit more margin and reliable PENETRATION! I read some time back that Phil took the 9mm because he left his .44 with his daughter that day. I really didn't see that verified in this interview.
I've never faced a charging bear but in 30 years in law enforcement I've faced a number of armed zombies and been in a couple of real shootem-up gun fights. I always wished that I had a bigger gun. Knowingly going into the woods where bears (or zombies) live without the proper hardware just doesn't seem to be a prudent game plan.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

This guy has been around a while, and he doesn't talk about CNS hits. If it's TLDR, he used 147gr Flat Nose Buffalo Bore in a 9mm, but usually carries a .357. Same behind the shoulder shots as we would use when hunting.

That's Phil , he uses what I use in my 9mm Glock,when in Grizzly country,the load is hard cast,it will penetrate 4to 6 feet straitline in bone ,and muscle. he did a video for Buffalo Bore.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Most bears are pussycats. Black bears are by far the most common in the US, and are what folks are most likely to encounter. They'd generally prefer to avoid human interaction, so they're easy to spook. Of course there's rare cases where they do become aggressive, which is why there's about as many black bear attacks as deer attacks each year. Grizzlies are a different story, and it makes sense to carry something for defense against them.

The average person, even the average hunter, can't shoot well in a high stress situation. Odds are most people won't be able to stop a bear with a gun. Just like every day CCW you need to routinely train, and the vast majority of people won't do that. Hitting a bear with bear spray is easier than hitting a bear with a bullet, and a hit with spray does a whole lot more than a miss with a bullet.

But you can shoot bullets upwind.