Meanwhile on RS they're killin bear, deer, elk , and moose with .223 and 77gr TMK.

[Wyo37]

A lot of generalizations here. Sometimes this forum seems like the facebook of long range hunting.

My choice of gun has absolutely nothing to do with ego; I'm to old for that crap. It has everything to do with the respect I have for people that have witnessed hundreds of elk shot over multiple decades. 100% of the Elk guides that I have spoken with have said start with the 7mms, and preferred the 30 cals. They reported the largest percentage of problems they saw were with the 6.5s and 270s. Maybe that's because they're so popular? Not my call. I chose to go with one of the "over hyped" PRCs, the 300. I only weigh about 160#, and it wasn't hard to learn how to shoot at all; I had it out to 1000yrds on steel the past two years. This gun, and the bullet I shot, just might have saved my *** this year with a little unanticipated event that happened just as I was squeezing off my shot at the biggest bull of my life, this year. While I appreciate all of the different opinions here, I choose to follow the recommendations I have from people that have witnessed 100s of elk shot.

I saw that thread on RS. It was mildly interesting, but did not convince me to start carrying a 223 for elk. I think we would all learn more by studying the failures than success pics.

Cool. I couldn't care less what elk guides recommend.

Nobody said a prc couldn't kill, the point is that most people shoot lower recoiling cartridges better and more frequently (ie they are more proficient) . And when combined with bullets that provide good terminal performance, why not shoot a lower recoiling cartridge.

If you want to shoot a magnum, go for it.

 

[Mike D Texas]

[QUOTE="Dooner, post: I think we would all learn more by studying the failures than success pics.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Which is why shooting accurately is so important.

If someone only sees quick and successful kills, with 6mm, 243, 223, 30-30, etc then the only conclusion they can come to is they work extremely well.
In the same way that someone who sees animals run off, when shot with a 300, 308, 338, etc can form their idea of how they don't work well. Maybe they do work okay, but the shooter sucks.
Me, I would bet my money on the best shooter, not if they were carrying a 243 or 338.
When I hear/read stories about people who rarely shoot, don't even know how to 0 their rifle, much less properly account for longer shots, and adjust accordingly, those are the unethical hunters in my opinion.
If the government wants to impose rules and regulations, how about instead of cartridge, they make it on proficiency.
To get your tags annually, you must first every year show up on designated days at a range. Upon arriving you have brought exactly 20 rounds with you, and at 100 yards must hit 4 out of 4 targets the size of a quarter. At 200 yards 4 out 4 twice the size of a quarter. At 300 three time the size of a quarter 4 out of 4 times. And the same thing at 400, and 500 yards, where the target is only 4 and 5 times the size of a quarter, 4 out of 4 times. If you miss once, you'll be allowed to retest after 30 days. That qualifies people to hunt up to 500 yards only. If someone wants to qualify for longer ranges, they can try, but the targets no longer get larger, or else the error factor is too huge. They must hit a target 5 times the diameter of a quarter, 4 out of 4 times, at the range they wish to qualify to hunt at.
5 times the diameter of a quarter is pretty large, if they cannot be accurate on something that BIG, well then they best get practicing. It would also assure their rifle is properly sighted, and they have a clue about bullet drop, windage, etc.
Dude A, who has a 243, and is a good shooter, is a vastly more ethical hunter, than Dude B, who can't shoot worth crap but has a 338.

No thank you. There are rifles that aren't capable of that accuracy much less shooters. What are your 5 shot groups at 100-500 yards? As I recall you admitted to being a new shooter and hunter. If I'm not remembering correctly, please disregard.


And I want less government, not more.

 

[Small Lady]

Hey Small Lady, That was funny. I just came from a deer hunt where a really great guy, a doctor, was showing us all some of his African cartridges. Now I worked in a pretty big gun shop for a lot of years , when I was young, and I have NEVER seen or held a 600 Nitro. Express round . Nickle plated case and a big solid. He and his father used it to take a huge Elephant and Cape Buffalo in Africa, a few years back. I swear, I would not want to shoot it. Showed us the 500 or 550 grn solid bullet, recovered from the animal's head. It was slightly bent but not deformed at all. It was really Impressive, as was his gorgeous double rifle. That (to me ) is the opposite end of this thread," how small a 22 cal bullet can you use and still kill game", compared to the largest rounds , made just to kill the giants of the planet!!! I love to learn about Rifles and Loads and Ballistics, and that conversation holding that 600 express round , was a real lesson for me.

Thank you!

I thoroughly enjoy reading about, and watching videos on guns. If I had a reason to go big, then I'd be shopping for a Rigby 600, why mess around, go big or go home, if big is required. The largest game we hunt locally are moose, and if lucky enough to get in on the very limited draw, way north of here is bison. A 1000 lb moose drops like Biden on a staircase when shot with a 30-30, 243, 6mm, etc if the shooter isn't a clueless buffoon, or trying to shoot at 1000 plus yards.
It would be extremely unusual to shoot a deer, or moose, past 300 yards here. Its mountain goat, and bison hunts where they are often more than 300 yards, and could be 600 plus. But that is why I purchased a 7 prc, to reach out comfortably to 600, 700, 800 yards. Really it's overkill for a deer or moose, which dies equally as fast from say a 243 bullet. I've been witness to far more kills with a 30-30, 243, and 6mm, than the big guns. But most here don't hunt with cannons, well except for my boss, and he pretty much exclusively uses a 338, anx actually calls a 300 winmag a pee shooter. I love him, best boss ever, but don't agree with him always, and that includes his thoughts on anything less than a 338 is too darn small. Show up to hunt with him carrying a 300wm or 7prc and expect to be teased.

 

[Small Lady]

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

I haven't tried the Gameking or the Gold dots (yet!) but they are both on my list. an acquaintance has urged me to try 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips after having used it on deer with good results so thats the next experiment. So far the 55 grain Hornadys and both 52-53 Matchkings have been...

rokslide.com

"Just for fun, guess which deer was shot with a 223/77 tmk, and which one was a 300 win mag/ 180 TTSX. Both shots sub 100 yards."

The bigger exit hole was the 223?!

Because it expanded better on its way through the deer.
Punching a clean hole through is not the goal.
In fact no exit at all is just fine, so long as the damage path inside was nasty.
A finger size hole in and back out does not mean much, except the animal is wounded, and runs away to die hours or days later. A good cup and core, hollow point soft copper, or something else catastrophic is the key, and not how large it is.

 

[memtb]

The bigger exit hole was the 223?!

Because it expanded better on its way through the deer.
Punching a clean hole through is not the goal.
In fact no exit at all is just fine, so long as the damage path inside was nasty.
A finger size hole in and back out does not mean much, except the animal is wounded, and runs away to die i hours or days later. A good cup and core, hollow point soft copper, or something else catastrophic is the key, and not how large it is.

Just because a larger caliber is used, it doesn't necessarily mean that the bullet will not expand on smaller game! It is determined by the bullet's construction!

The first bullets that I attempted to use in .375 H&H would not exit a deer or an average size Black Bear with the animal being shot broadside without hitting large bone…..unless a rib is considered large bone!

It about bullet construction……not bullet diameter! memtb

 

[victor3ranger]

The bigger exit hole was the 223?!

Because it expanded better on its way through the deer.
Punching a clean hole through is not the goal.
In fact no exit at all is just fine, so long as the damage path inside was nasty.
A finger size hole in and back out does not mean much, except the animal is wounded, and runs away to die i hours or days later. A good cup and core, hollow point soft copper, or something else catastrophic is the key, and not how large it is.

Absolutely.
That deer the other day was 420yds and 25mph wind. I was shooting a 7rem mag 140g running 3250fps. Only good shot was a neck shot, almost straight but barely quarting to my right, made my adjustments and squeeze, I missed only 1.5" to the left due to the wind gusts up to 32mph sending it through the neck and in under the right shoulder. Like being struck by lightning.

 

[Small Lady]

No thank you. There are rifles that aren't capable of that accuracy much less shooters. What are your 5 shot groups at 100-500 yards? As I recall you admitted to being a new shooter and hunter. If I'm not remembering correctly, please disregard.


And I want less government, not more.

I think that we all want less government.
But 'if' the government wants to limit hunters, it should be based on proficiency, not caliber.
And to answer your other point about some guns cannot be accurate at those distances, well then they are eliminated, and no longer a concern.
Hunters that aren't idiots, should be the goal.

Not people who have their scope store mounted, and say close enough.
Or a box of ammo lasts them years.
Either they are a good shot, or they stay home.
And if whatever they are shooting is still accurate at 500 yards, it is likely still traveling at a good speed, or they couldn't hit 4 out of 4 targets. Sure they might fluke 1, but that's why its never just 1 shot. The bare minimum should be 4 in my opinion.
Want to hunt with my boss, then you have to prove to be accurate 20 out of 20 shots, or else he won't let you hunt at those distances.
He uses a beer can as his measure.
If you can hit 20 out of 20 beer cans at 100 yards, but not 200, then you're not allowed to hunt past 100 yards with him. His hunt, his rules. I don't miss at 100, 200, 300, 400, or 500 yards. I can usually get 20 for 20 at 600 yards, but not always. 700 well I am more like 14 out of 20, and at 800 yards, hit 5 to 11 most days, so call myself a 5 out of 20 shooter at 800. We don't shoot targets a lot here, usually an object, or beer cans. Personally I don't count my 100 yard shots as a hit unless i hit the particular letter printed on the can I was aiming for.

I know that you prefer a 300wm, nice guns in my opinion.
My boss would call it a pee shooter, or BB gun, because again we all have our own opinions. Doesn't make the right or wrong, just different.
One persons 223, is another persons 338, is anothers 600 express.

 

[Small Lady]

Just because a larger caliber is used, it doesn't necessarily mean that the bullet will not expand on smaller game! It is determined by the bullet's construction!

The first bullets that I attempted to use in .375 H&H would not exit a deer or an average size Black Bear with the animal being shot broadside without hitting large bone…..unless a rib is considered large bone!

It about bullet construction……not bullet diameter! memtb

100% agree with you.
But those who like bigger, tend to often also lean toward much more solid construction bullets, and be the ones looking for an exit wound every time.
They have those old school thoughts in their head, and are difficult to re-educate.
I'll never hunt anything that my 7prc won't drop.
I also like hornady 175 exld, as they tend to be very destructive along their way, and I don't care if it exits or not. If its uses up everything it has internally, and stops, that is what I call great.
But if by some miracle I was going to, I'm just going to get a Rigby in 600 Express. Either it has to be big, or not, so why screw around is my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm correct, just me being me. Besides looking over at a 600 leaning against the wall in my little cabin would put a smile on my face, that no 338 ever could.

 

[victor3ranger]

100% agree with you.
But those who like bigger, tend to often also lean toward much more solid construction bullets, and be the ones looking for an exit wound every time.
They have those old school thoughts in their head, and are difficult to reducate.
I'll never hunt anything that my 7prc won't drop.
But if by some miracle I was going to, I'm just going to get a Rigby in 600 Express. Either it has to be big, or not, so why screw around is my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm correct, just me being me. Besides looking over at a 600 leaning against the wall in my little cabin would put a smile on my face, that no 338 ever could.

I am probably one of the weird ones but I don't like my bullet to exit the opposite side, I want it to expend every ounce of energy inside. In my mind it would be like a bomb going off inside

 

[xsn10s]

The bigger exit hole was the 223?!

Because it expanded better on its way through the deer.
Punching a clean hole through is not the goal.
In fact no exit at all is just fine, so long as the damage path inside was nasty.
A finger size hole in and back out does not mean much, except the animal is wounded, and runs away to die i hours or days later. A good cup and core, hollow point soft copper, or something else catastrophic is the key, and not how large it is.

Looks like "B" was the .223 77gr TMK.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I think that we all want less government.
But 'if' the government wants to limit hunters, it should be based on proficiency, not caliber.
And to answer your other point about some guns cannot be accurate at those distances, well then they are eliminated, and no longer a concern.
Hunters that aren't idiots, should be the goal.

Not people who have their scope store mounted, and say close enough.
Or a box of ammo lasts them years.
Either they are a good shot, or they stay home.
And if whatever they are shooting is still accurate at 500 yards, it is likely still traveling at a good speed, or they couldn't hit 4 out of 4 targets. Sure they might fluke 1, but that's why its never just 1 shot. The bare minimum should be 4 in my opinion.
Want to hunt with my boss, then you have to prove to be accurate 20 out of 20 shots, or else he won't let you hunt at those distances.
He uses a beer can as his measure.
If you can hit 20 out of 20 beer cans at 100 yards, but not 200, then you're not allowed to hunt past 100 yards with him. His hunt, his rules. I don't miss at 100, 200, 300, 400, or 500 yards. I can usually get 20 for 20 at 600 yards, but not always. 700 well I am more like 14 out of 20, and at 800 yards, hit 5 to 11 most days, so call myself a 5 out of 20 shooter at 800. We don't shoot targets a lot here, usually an object, or beer cans. Personally I don't count my 100 yard shots as a hit unless i hit the particular letter printed on the can I was aiming for.

I know that you prefer a 300wm, nice guns in my opinion.
My boss would call it a pee shooter, or BB gun, because again we all have our own opinions. Doesn't make the right or wrong, just different.
One persons 223, is another persons 338, is anothers 600 express.

I understand you are under different governance in Canada but we take our freedom pretty serious in the US.

You can't advocate for stricter government restrictions and at the same time say you are for less government. Here in the US the game belongs to the people but is managed by the state.

And that pretty pompous to say eliminate all guns that can't shoot 1/2 MOA or less. That would eliminate a large amount of guns.and not everyone can afford a gun that guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA.

Hitting a beer can is a LOT different than shooting 1/2 MOA.

I don't recall saying I prefer the 300 Win Mag. I own one but haven't hunted with it in at least 15 years. In Texas I normally hunt whitetail, hogs and Axis deer with anything from a 22-250 to a 260AI and a .308.

I do own a few magnum cartridges up to a 338 Norma Magnum. It's what I will use for elk and larger game. And I can shoot it pretty well too. I might even pass muster with your boss.

 

[Mike D Texas]

100% agree with you.
But those who like bigger, tend to often also lean toward much more solid construction bullets, and be the ones looking for an exit wound every time.
They have those old school thoughts in their head, and are difficult to re-educate.
I'll never hunt anything that my 7prc won't drop.
I also like hornady 175 exld, as they tend to be very destructive along their way, and I don't care if it exits or not. If its uses up everything it has internally, and stops, that is what I call great.
But if by some miracle I was going to, I'm just going to get a Rigby in 600 Express. Either it has to be big, or not, so why screw around is my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm correct, just me being me. Besides looking over at a 600 leaning against the wall in my little cabin would put a smile on my face, that no 338 ever could.

I would say that is dependent on the shooter. Most people shooting larger cartridges are doing so for long range and are using more frangible bullets like Bergers or Hornady ELDM.

If they are using it for dangerous game then of course they want a tougher constructed bullet.

 

[memtb]

100% agree with you.
But those who like bigger, tend to often also lean toward much more solid construction bullets, and be the ones looking for an exit wound every time.
They have those old school thoughts in their head, and are difficult to re-educate.
I'll never hunt anything that my 7prc won't drop.
I also like hornady 175 exld, as they tend to be very destructive along their way, and I don't care if it exits or not. If its uses up everything it has internally, and stops, that is what I call great.
But if by some miracle I was going to, I'm just going to get a Rigby in 600 Express. Either it has to be big, or not, so why screw around is my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm correct, just me being me. Besides looking over at a 600 leaning against the wall in my little cabin would put a smile on my face, that no 338 ever could.

I fall, "very heavily", into the I want an exit crowd!

I've yet to have killing issues with my chosen bullets that generally retain almost 100% of their original bullet weight.

While my permanent wound channel my be smaller than that of a frangible bullet……my wound channel being much longer provides opportunity for more tissue/bone/structure/vascular due to that much longer path!

Neither do I follow the fallacy pertaining to the animals absorbing all of the "energy" contributing to a higher percentage of kills! I've yet to see a big game animal, any big game animal, taken off of their feet when hit with a bit over 5000 ft/lbs energy! In fact, often there is no sign of being hit, unless support structure bones or CNS is hit. Yet, these very same animals traveled a very short distance before expiring! Apparently, these high weight retention, exiting bullets will effectively kill! memtb

 

[Mike D Texas]

I am probably one of the weird ones but I don't like my bullet to exit the opposite side, I want it to expend every ounce of energy inside. In my mind it would be like a bomb going off inside

I'm the opposite. Have you ever been hunting in the South Texas brush country? You better hope your game drops on the spot or you get a good blood trail because if you don't, you are in for a bad day. If you don't get a pass through you are going to be the one leaving a blood trail trying to bust through that brush that has every thorny bush known to man.