Excuse is usually something like, "no 500yd ranges near me. So I figured I'd do it here". Yeah, right.
Bone to pick with new rifle owners - 100 yards out of the box
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Probably never slept under the stars either. Too bad for them.
crm3006
Well-Known Member
I have heard many claims of 1000 yard accuracy, but have seen very few, unless on a range, in controlled conditions. Out of the box? Really, really hard to believe. I would never go on any hunt without first checking my zero, but mine is nowhere near your 500, 600, or 1000 yards. I am a hunter, not a sniper, as your gamesniper 19 name seems to suggest. I would also suggest that if you take those long, long shots anywhere with any type of rough terrain, you probably lose animals that can't be found.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
I have a close friend that had a 300wm Browning Auto. It would hit the broadside of a barn door. He as me a question about getting a diiferent rifle. I went with him and he got a Rem 700 in a 7mmRM. He ask if I would help to work up a load for him. My brother had more info on the 7mm at the time and also used one.
So he hand loaded up a bunch of ammo for the new rifle. Worked on the loads over the next two days. Come up with what he was using in his rifle. Anyway his shoulder was getting a little sore. So I confirm his zero and POC. Out of the box it was shooting 1/2" groups @ 100yds. Meet up with my friend that day. Had him shoot the rifle. I don't know how he held the rifle, but it was a lot different that what my brother and I hold a rifle.
The friend couldn't place a round on the paper @ 100yds. So we move to 25yds, and adjusted the sights. Went back to 100yds with his adjustment on the scope. Wheb back to 100yds. His groups were about or the same has mine and my brother. On there hunt he got his elk wit that rifle.
Now I have heard of some people hold rifle differently. This was the case here.
Bottom line even if you sight a rifle in for someone else. They need to be check out to see if their hold is the same. The other is my sons are right handed and I am lefthanded. They can shoot my rifles, and I can shoot their rifles. The POI is the same between us.
While I agree partially with you, you can't tell me most people can't find a few hours other than the week before hunting season to shoot a couple times a year. Most hunters I knew that fit the description you described, all had at least one weekend during the summer they would sit around and do nothing. Many can stay home and watch college football all day Saturday and NFL on Sunday, but complain they don't have time to get to the range. It's all about priorities.
I have a package that is basically what the OP described, a turn key long range rifle, ready to go out of the box. Ammo, ballistics, break-in… all done. Part of this package includes a free day of long range shooting / training with me.
What I've found is nearly everyone wants this training. Desperately. Unfortunately not everyone can make the trip out. They leave that day, usually having engaged and impacted steel out to 1 mile with confidence, but also an understanding of their limitations. Post training debriefs with these fellas are interesting. Most of these guys are your average hunter, they shoot occasionally but have no experience past a couple hundred yards. I always ask how far they would be confident taking an animal at, the furthest yardage was 700 by a very well seasoned shooter…. Pretty reasonable considering his experience and equipment The average is 400 and in.
I guess my point is training. Training is everything. The "technology" in the sport has evolved to a point where it is possible, in unrealistically perfect conditions, to take a person with the bare minimum of understanding of firearm operation and safety, and make hits on steel at 1,000 yards and even beyond. I've done this with several family members. The false confidence that brings is scary. You introduce physical and mental stress, adverse weather conditions, awkward shooting positions, a living, moving target, and anything else that can happen "in the field" and everything goes out the window.
Another issue is the training that's available. There's plenty of it, but the training curriculum is standardized and meant to make the customers feel good about themselves. I've taken these classes before. They are fun and better than nothing and do a good job of instructing, but they lack in exposing the shooters to pressure. With some creativity, it is possible to expose a shooter to varying levels of stress to match their experience level. These aren't the classes where you just bang steel from a bench or prone all day. You leave feeling humbled and motivated to learn more and improve your craft. We, as hunters, need to urge new shooters and hunters to seek these courses out, or even develop our own informal training for our buddies and acquaintances. It's fun and benefits everyone involved.
That was long winded but something I feel pretty strongly about. In short, I 100% agree with the OP. Too many people buying these out of the box 1,000 yard rifles and not having the training to ethically use them in the field.
Good topic! Very important stuff!
What I've found is nearly everyone wants this training. Desperately. Unfortunately not everyone can make the trip out. They leave that day, usually having engaged and impacted steel out to 1 mile with confidence, but also an understanding of their limitations. Post training debriefs with these fellas are interesting. Most of these guys are your average hunter, they shoot occasionally but have no experience past a couple hundred yards. I always ask how far they would be confident taking an animal at, the furthest yardage was 700 by a very well seasoned shooter…. Pretty reasonable considering his experience and equipment The average is 400 and in.
I guess my point is training. Training is everything. The "technology" in the sport has evolved to a point where it is possible, in unrealistically perfect conditions, to take a person with the bare minimum of understanding of firearm operation and safety, and make hits on steel at 1,000 yards and even beyond. I've done this with several family members. The false confidence that brings is scary. You introduce physical and mental stress, adverse weather conditions, awkward shooting positions, a living, moving target, and anything else that can happen "in the field" and everything goes out the window.
Another issue is the training that's available. There's plenty of it, but the training curriculum is standardized and meant to make the customers feel good about themselves. I've taken these classes before. They are fun and better than nothing and do a good job of instructing, but they lack in exposing the shooters to pressure. With some creativity, it is possible to expose a shooter to varying levels of stress to match their experience level. These aren't the classes where you just bang steel from a bench or prone all day. You leave feeling humbled and motivated to learn more and improve your craft. We, as hunters, need to urge new shooters and hunters to seek these courses out, or even develop our own informal training for our buddies and acquaintances. It's fun and benefits everyone involved.
That was long winded but something I feel pretty strongly about. In short, I 100% agree with the OP. Too many people buying these out of the box 1,000 yard rifles and not having the training to ethically use them in the field.
Good topic! Very important stuff!
19elkhunter51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 257
As read some of the statements on this thread, one thought continued to run through my (admittedly 72+ year old brain). I most assuredly did not wake up one morning in my early life and go "Gosh I know all about fishing, camping outdoors, shooting, reloading". No, I like EVERYONE on this forum, spent a lifetime of camping, shooting fishing and reloading to learn what I know about those activities.
Frequently, new shooters, reloaders, join this forum the take advantage of hundreds or thousands of years of experience of very knowledgeable people that regularly post on this forum. I sometimes find absolutely amazing that anyone would subject themselves to some of the abuse that is heaped upon a new user asking simple questions that ALL of us asked once upon a time.
NONE of us was born with a powder measure in our hand. Long hours and many stupid questions later, we believe we have made an increase in our knowledge about a given subject.
My Mother (RIP) and Father taught me this "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".
Just me and my two cents.
Frequently, new shooters, reloaders, join this forum the take advantage of hundreds or thousands of years of experience of very knowledgeable people that regularly post on this forum. I sometimes find absolutely amazing that anyone would subject themselves to some of the abuse that is heaped upon a new user asking simple questions that ALL of us asked once upon a time.
NONE of us was born with a powder measure in our hand. Long hours and many stupid questions later, we believe we have made an increase in our knowledge about a given subject.
My Mother (RIP) and Father taught me this "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".
Just me and my two cents.
SteveBurton
Formerly 'Jackmonkey'
This behavior is not new nor is it only in the gun community. Years ago, a good friend worked the archery counter at BPS. You would be amazed at how many people would show up the NIGHT before opening day for deer season and have a bow package put together. We would tell them they need to practice before trying to shoot an animal but most were like talking to a wall. There were many angry or befuddled customers the following week blaming the bow or arrows for their misses.
Compound bows and crossbows made archery easier. The Creedmoor and PRC line-up have made shooting easier. None of them negate the need to practice. Unfortunately, I don't think writers and reviewers emphasize that importance or the respect for animals anymore.
Compound bows and crossbows made archery easier. The Creedmoor and PRC line-up have made shooting easier. None of them negate the need to practice. Unfortunately, I don't think writers and reviewers emphasize that importance or the respect for animals anymore.
VTbluegrass
Well-Known Member
The quicker and more to the point answer is just a no experience hunter. There are people with 20 years of hunting seasons with no experience because they never learned anything along the way. The never shot their 4-7k rifle at camp is the same person.
It exists in fishing too. A 50k boat with the latest gear can't buy you success you just look the part.
Many of these people are what I like to refer to as the window sticker hero. They got the look, the gear, and advertise that they have swiped a card to get the "best" gear through the window stickers on their unscratched 4x4 truck.
But I'm on a rant now.. hahaha
It exists in fishing too. A 50k boat with the latest gear can't buy you success you just look the part.
Many of these people are what I like to refer to as the window sticker hero. They got the look, the gear, and advertise that they have swiped a card to get the "best" gear through the window stickers on their unscratched 4x4 truck.
But I'm on a rant now.. hahaha
birddog 68
Well-Known Member
I agree that this happens but I think this thread isn't bashing anyone that actually asks questions and is eager to learn. I thought it was directed towards people that think they can spend their way to great 1000 yard groups without effort.
I wouldn't ever put a person down that asked questions. It's how we used to learn before you tube!
Im going to get beat up for this, but I'll say it.
Do you think new shooters/hunters should have to attend a new hunter/shooter training course of some sort? My dad made me go through the old Junior NRA Shooter/Hunter course before he allowed me to shoot. This was back in '67. I still have the course certificate. 3 days of classroom followed by 2 days of indoor 25yd 22lr shooting. I look back on that training and smile at what I learned. It's still with me today.
Maybe this a subject for a new thread.
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comfisherman
Well-Known Member
]
With a caveat, if the questions run along the vein of beneficial no matter how mundane it's worth responding in kind....
However, there are questions like "what 500 dollar scope hangs with zco" or "what Creedmoor bullet is best for brown bears at 1000" or my personal favorite "this load I got of the innernet' is great but why is all my brass garbage?". Those are hard to not kill with fire...
With a caveat, if the questions run along the vein of beneficial no matter how mundane it's worth responding in kind....
However, there are questions like "what 500 dollar scope hangs with zco" or "what Creedmoor bullet is best for brown bears at 1000" or my personal favorite "this load I got of the innernet' is great but why is all my brass garbage?". Those are hard to not kill with fire...
So true…
Prairie Sasquatch
Well-Known Member
I think there should be. Especially to get big game licenses. I've archery hunted for years but still had to take an online archery course to buy an archery license in SD and MT. I had to take the online bear ID course to hunt in Montana.
In an effort to get people into hunting I think the agencies have forgot about the ethical part of killing an animal which is the most important consideration I think. Not to mention safety.
