Badlands Precision Bullets thread - From BC to terminal ballistics

[JAYgs8163]

I know we've had a lot of discussions about 65SB recently on some of the Badlands threads. I stumbled on this today, looks like 2 new versions.

Winchester StaBALL HD

Winchester® StaBALL™ HD is a temperature-insensitive, double-base, BALL® Powder, stable in extreme-hot or -cold conditions. This slow-burning magnum powder provides optimal loading density in large capacity magnum cartridges appropriate for the burn speed, which is ideal for 6.5 PRC, 7MM...

shop.hodgdon.com

Winchester StaBALL Match

Winchester® StaBALL™ Match is a temperature-insensitive, double-base, BALL® Powder, stable in extreme-hot or -cold conditions. This powder provides optimal loading density in cartridges appropriate for the burn speed, which is ideal for high-BC heavy for caliber bullets in 223 Remington, 224...

shop.hodgdon.com

 

[nralifer]

I know we've had a lot of discussions about 65SB recently on some of the Badlands threads. I stumbled on this today, looks like 2 new versions.

Winchester StaBALL HD

Winchester® StaBALL™ HD is a temperature-insensitive, double-base, BALL® Powder, stable in extreme-hot or -cold conditions. This slow-burning magnum powder provides optimal loading density in large capacity magnum cartridges appropriate for the burn speed, which is ideal for 6.5 PRC, 7MM...

shop.hodgdon.com

Winchester StaBALL Match

Winchester® StaBALL™ Match is a temperature-insensitive, double-base, BALL® Powder, stable in extreme-hot or -cold conditions. This powder provides optimal loading density in cartridges appropriate for the burn speed, which is ideal for high-BC heavy for caliber bullets in 223 Remington, 224...

shop.hodgdon.com

The slower burning powder seems especially attractive. May also be suited to the 300 Norma and the 338 Norma and the 6.5 PRC. Great news!!

 

[bowhunter1287]

Has anyone seen it in stock or heard when it's gonna be available

 

[JAYgs8163]

It's on Hogdons website so assuming should be soon. Also info in the new 2023 Hodgdon annual reload update that comes in Magazine format.

 

[264MHC]

Ya I saw those the other day.
Posted a thread on them here: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/new-sta-ball-powder-variants.317693/#post-2680621

I'm most exited about the Match variant for 6mm and 6.5 Grendel. If it can produce velocity/case fill similar to CFE 223/Leverevolution, and be stable, It will be awesome in the Grendel Case.

Speaking of the Grendel, @nralifer, I would love to see a 90-100 Grain 6.5 BD2 designed for an 8 twist with a .24-.26 G7 BC. Would allow a 16" or shorter barreled Grendel to match the ballistics of a 123 in a 24" barrel as far as velocity, drop and drift go. Bonus points if it can be kept 1.25" or shorter to fit AR Mags. Might be a pipe dream but I know it won't happen if I don't ask.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Ya I saw those the other day.
Posted a thread on them here: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/new-sta-ball-powder-variants.317693/#post-2680621

I'm most exited about the Match variant for 6mm and 6.5 Grendel. If it can produce velocity/case fill similar to CFE 223/Leverevolution, and be stable, It will be awesome in the Grendel Case.

Speaking of the Grendel, @nralifer, I would love to see a 90-100 Grain 6.5 BD2 designed for an 8 twist with a .24-.26 G7 BC. Would allow a 16" or shorter barreled Grendel to match the ballistics of a 123 in a 24" barrel as far as velocity, drop and drift go. Bonus points if it can be kept 1.25" or shorter to fit AR Mags. Might be a pipe dream but I know it won't happen if I don't ask.

I agree. A lighter 6.5 BD would be awesome. I've got a 85 grain from Hammer that is a rocket. I'd like to see a 90-100 BD also. Preferably a 90.

 

[nralifer]

It's on Hogdons website so assuming should be soon. Also info in the new 2023 Hodgdon annual reload update that comes in Magazine format.

As far as I can tell it is unobtanium unfortunately.

 

[nralifer]

Ya I saw those the other day.
Posted a thread on them here: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/new-sta-ball-powder-variants.317693/#post-2680621

I'm most exited about the Match variant for 6mm and 6.5 Grendel. If it can produce velocity/case fill similar to CFE 223/Leverevolution, and be stable, It will be awesome in the Grendel Case.

Speaking of the Grendel, @nralifer, I would love to see a 90-100 Grain 6.5 BD2 designed for an 8 twist with a .24-.26 G7 BC. Would allow a 16" or shorter barreled Grendel to match the ballistics of a 123 in a 24" barrel as far as velocity, drop and drift go. Bonus points if it can be kept 1.25" or shorter to fit AR Mags. Might be a pipe dream but I know it won't happen if I don't ask.

What speed and BC do you anticipate needing from a 100 gr bullet from a 16" barrel that would match a 123 gr bullet shot from s 26" barrel? Need to use a ballistic calculator.

 

[JAYgs8163]

What speed and BC do you anticipate needing from a 100 gr bullet from a 16" barrel that would match a 123 gr bullet shot from s 26" barrel? Need to use a ballistic calculator.

I want one to shoot from a 22" bolt gun and I also have a 24" AR I'd like to shoot it from. I'm thinking we could get to 2900-2950 which right now I'm at about 2575 out of my 24"AR with the 129 SST not a 123. I would think 3k may be attainable. Here is my chart from the 129 out to 500.

 

[264MHC]

What speed and BC do you anticipate needing from a 100 gr bullet from a 16" barrel that would match a 123 gr bullet shot from s 26" barrel? Need to use a ballistic calculator.

So I'd say a typical Grendel AR with 24" Barrel will shoot a 123 ELDM .260 G7 at 2600 fps. My 18" Grendel shot these at 2460, and 16" at 2400. My current Grendel is 12.7" and gets 2300 with these. I was able to get 2550 with 107 TMK g7 .240 in my 16", almost achieving the 24" barrel benchmark above. In the 12.7, I am currently working with 97 Absolute Hammers but the best I have done so far is 2640, but the g7 is only .166. I could probably mess with different powders and get them faster, but I feel like that is a good representation of velocity in this barrel length with 100ish grain bullets.

If I could get that same velocity with a similar weight bullet, but with a g7 in the .250 range, it would essentially match 123 factory ammo in a 24" barrel, at almost half the barrel length. Energy of course would be lower, but velocity, drop and drift would match up well.

The 107 TMK is the closest to ideal I have found but I'm out of them and they haven't done a run of them in quite awhile.

With what you've been able to do with the 125 and 135 (s)bd2, It seems possible a 100 grain or lighter bullet could get to .250 g7 if designed around max performance in an 8 twist. Most lighter 6.5 bullets work in 9 or slower twist so leave performance on the table in an 8.

 

[nralifer]

So I'd say a typical Grendel AR with 24" Barrel will shoot a 123 ELDM .260 G7 at 2600 fps. My 18" Grendel shot these at 2460, and 16" at 2400. My current Grendel is 12.7" and gets 2300 with these. I was able to get 2550 with 107 TMK g7 .240 in my 16", almost achieving the 24" barrel benchmark above. In the 12.7, I am currently working with 97 Absolute Hammers but the best I have done so far is 2640, but the g7 is only .166. I could probably mess with different powders and get them faster, but I feel like that is a good representation of velocity in this barrel length with 100ish grain bullets.

If I could get that same velocity with a similar weight bullet, but with a g7 in the .250 range, it would essentially match 123 factory ammo in a 24" barrel, at almost half the barrel length. Energy of course would be lower, but velocity, drop and drift would match up well.

The 107 TMK is the closest to ideal I have found but I'm out of them and they haven't done a run of them in quite awhile.

With what you've been able to do with the 125 and 135 (s)bd2, It seems possible a 100 grain or lighter bullet could get to .250 g7 if designed around max performance in an 8 twist. Most lighter 6.5 bullets work in 9 or slower twist so leave performance on the table in an 8.

So I'd say a typical Grendel AR with 24" Barrel will shoot a 123 ELDM .260 G7 at 2600 fps. My 18" Grendel shot these at 2460, and 16" at 2400. My current Grendel is 12.7" and gets 2300 with these. I was able to get 2550 with 107 TMK g7 .240 in my 16", almost achieving the 24" barrel benchmark above. In the 12.7, I am currently working with 97 Absolute Hammers but the best I have done so far is 2640, but the g7 is only .166. I could probably mess with different powders and get them faster, but I feel like that is a good representation of velocity in this barrel length with 100ish grain bullets.

If I could get that same velocity with a similar weight bullet, but with a g7 in the .250 range, it would essentially match 123 factory ammo in a 24" barrel, at almost half the barrel length. Energy of course would be lower, but velocity, drop and drift would match up well.

The 107 TMK is the closest to ideal I have found but I'm out of them and they haven't done a run of them in quite awhile.

With what you've been able to do with the 125 and 135 (s)bd2, It seems possible a 100 grain or lighter bullet could get to .250 g7 if designed around max performance in an 8 twist. Most lighter 6.5 bullets work in 9 or slower twist so leave performance on the table in an 8.

How long is the 123 TMK?

 

[264MHC]

Here are my numbers. Measurements are just with calipers so maybe not exact. BTO measurement is using Hornady 5-26 insert. There is of course variation lot to lot.

107 TMK:

123 ELD M:

123 ELD M's were designed for the Grendel and shoot well at mag length, but protrude into the powder space with the short boat tail and long bearing surface. 107 TMK keep the bearing surface above the neck shoulder junction at mag length.

 

[Mike D Texas]

If you could match the 97 grain abosolute hammer velocity with a higher BC I would be in love.

I've run the 97 grain absolute hammer at 2961 in my 20" Grendel AR. But as stated the BC is atrocious.

 

[nralifer]

Here are my numbers. Measurements are just with calipers so maybe not exact. BTO measurement is using Hornady 5-26 insert. There is of course variation lot to lot.

107 TMK:

View attachment 418349

123 ELD M:

View attachment 418350

123 ELD M's were designed for the Grendel and shoot well at mag length, but protrude into the powder space with the short boat tail and long bearing surface. 107 TMK keep the bearing surface above the neck shoulder junction at mag length.

From the measurements you provided, I don't think we could offer a bullet that would be substantially higher in performance to justify the price of development and Swiss lathe manufacture. To make a high BC bullet from copper you need to satisfy 3 requirements. A longer ogive, a longer boat tail and minimize skin drag. In our case we also have a complex proprietary mathematical function describing the ogival shape which also adds to the BC. All these things add up to a longer bullet because copper is less dense than lead. In terms of sales, we don't see a 90 or 100 gr 6.5 bullet for the Grendel AR platform selling very well or having a high BC because of the severe restraints on completed round OAL posed by the short magazine. In a bolt action, there is nothing one can do with a Grendel that you couldn't do better with a 6.5x47 Lap or 6.5 Creed. Right now our competitors have their light weight 6.5 bullets priced at about $1.10/ bullet. That is not competitive with the 107gr Sierra which sells for less than half that amount (approximately $0.50/bullet). The #1 enemy of high BC hunting bullets are short actions and short magazines. The AR 15 platform is a very mediocre hunting platform if you want to use high BC lathe turned bullets. Bolt actions are much better. Remember, Stoner designed that platform as a high capacity light weight, rapid fire lead slinger for close in battle (300-400 yds or less). There is nothing wrong with trying to adapt that platform for hunting, as long as one is cognizant of the limitations and is willing to live with them.