Scope Levels- Why?

[26Reload]

A lot of of archery...yes...minute screw up...huge impact differences....
Add trifocals into the mix....different levels of focus screw everything up.....misplace your shoulder...add more.....
Straight reticle....best of all worlds....round or flat.....

 

[Montana73]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my thread response. If I use the Wheeler level product on the barrel and the top of the MOA one piece mount and use a level to put my scope vertical level with the one piece mount and the top of the rings, I find when I mount my rifle and look thru the scope the vertical is canted a few degrees counterclockwise or to the 11 o'clock position based on how the buttstock fits into the pocket of my shoulder.

Instead of trying to force the vertical reticle back to 12 o'clock which feels unnatural, I have gone to a process where I twist the scope vertical reticle at 12 o'clock when I mount the gun to shoot. That way, even though I may not be level with the top of the rings/MOA mount level, I've got a consistent vertical/horizontal reticle that I can replicate from shot to shot. My barrel doesn't care where reticle is a long as I do the same thing over and over. I never consider the lines on the target itself for alignment...I align the vertical and horizontal posts to level based on how I mount the gun and focus on a target. As I am a hunter more than a target shooter, this is my way of ensuring I get consistent on my mount and consistent on my scope reticle which is tied to my sight-in grouping.

My way of saying I don't see the need for a scope or ring level as it doesn't match my gun mount posture.

 

[mwkelso]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my thread response. If I use the Wheeler level product on the barrel and the top of the MOA one piece mount and use a level to put my scope vertical level with the one piece mount and the top of the rings, I find when I mount my rifle and look thru the scope the vertical is canted a few degrees counterclockwise or to the 11 o'clock position based on how the buttstock fits into the pocket of my shoulder.

Instead of trying to force the vertical reticle back to 12 o'clock which feels unnatural, I have gone to a process where I twist the scope vertical reticle at 12 o'clock when I mount the gun to shoot. That way, even though I may not be level with the top of the rings/MOA mount level, I've got a consistent vertical/horizontal reticle that I can replicate from shot to shot. My barrel doesn't care where reticle is a long as I do the same thing over and over. I never consider the lines on the target itself for alignment...I align the vertical and horizontal posts to level based on how I mount the gun and focus on a target. As I am a hunter more than a target shooter, this is my way of ensuring I get consistent on my mount and consistent on my scope reticle which is tied to my sight-in grouping.

My way of saying I don't see the need for a scope or ring level as it doesn't match my gun mount posture.

This makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that!

 

[26Reload]

What if someone else grabs your gun to shoot......small increments...leads to bad decisions........in long range....not short....it may still kill a charging bull goldenmantle....

 

[Rum Man]

Well growing up I never heard of a scope level . Just the old mossberg 22 mag and a bushnell 3x9 to use at the time . Things have changed alot for my shooting . I think we get wrapped up in to much high tech stuff now .
That being said I have levels on all my guns .

I'm pushing the limits of my equipment right now . This year has been Amazing for me ! Taking a Elk at Long distance and just a few weeks ago hitting my furthest shot ever on target 3027 yrds. So at this point I'm sold on the level . I will say it has corrected my hold on my Rifles!!

Rum Man

 

[Montana73]

Rum Man - is your level tied to the top of the turret/rings or is it tied to your horizontal/verticle scope reticle?

 

[jimbires]

I use them on my long range rifles . I want to get all the advantages I can . I noticed at the range , if the target holding frame leaned one way , and my target was angled the other I had nothing to try and plumb myself up to . if I was shooting in the field it was also difficult . the trees leaning , the ground slope , nothing out there is straight and plumb . I feel the level is cheap to try to get an advantage .

 

[Rum Man]

Rum Man - is your level tied to the top of the turret/rings or is it tied to your horizontal/verticle scope reticle?

It set up on the scope tube just ahead of the diles .

Rum Man

 

[rammac]

It's obvious which poster has tried using a level and which ones have not.

The average person can not resolve an angle any better than plus or minus 3 degrees with their eyes.

Rifle cant (what you create when your reticle isn't properly aligned with the vertical and horizontal of the stock) causes the bullet to move to one side and down from where your muzzle is pointed...no, your barrel doesn't care how the reticle is aligned but the stock does and when the stock and the scope are out of alignment your impacts become more random. At short range it's a fairly small error that most shooters can't see (unless you are a bench rest shooter), but at long range it becomes very obvious.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/3/28/rifle-scope-reticle-cant/

Using the trajectory of a 168-grain, .30-caliber bullet, with a ballistic coefficient (BC) of .462 and muzzle velocity of 2,681 fps, let's examine the effects of these different cants. Our imaginary rifle will have the scope mounted 1.8 inches above the centerline of the bore

From the cant error information in the above picture, you can see that most shooters aren't going to believe that a level is useful because they don't shoot accurately enough to even see the error. A 1 inch error at 200 yards is usually written off as "...just how I shoot" and it isn't even recognized as a mechanical problem that can be fixed. When you start trying to hit accurately (1 MOA or better) at ranges past 600 yards you'll see the problem pretty quickly. Go shoot at 1000 yards and when you can't hold a group that's better than 3 or 4 MOA (30 or 40 inches) you'll start looking at that cant angle.

Due to the height of the scope above the bore, any cant will create and arc with the bullet impacts on the target. Most of the error will be horizontal but at longer range the vertical will become large enough to cause problems.

Aligning your reticle to a poor shooting position causes the muzzle to move up and down in one plane and the scope to move up and down in another. The longer the distance the more difference there will be between those two planes. Ever wonder why you had to add windage to your scope as you increased the range when there wasn't any wind? Well now you know why (your scope could also have a problem but that's another issue with reticle alignment), as the range increases you have to add more and more windage with every elevation change because of the difference between how the stock/muzzle is moving compared to how the reticle moves.

 

[naja302]

I feel pretty confident holding my reticle "plumb" when shooting prone on flat ground or from a bench, but I've found that when getting into position on the side of a hill trying to shoot an animal my internal sense of vertical and horizontal goes out the window and I really on the level. Not all shots are perfectly horizontal East cross canyon type shots.

 

[Mram10us]

I find them valuable in the steep terrain I hunt. Levels don't have to be accurate like a starrett machinist level. Just need to give you a repeatable indication. At 1000 yds, you will see a difference in elevation and windage on your target if you are canted. Easy math makes sense of it. Try it and see if you like it

 

[Mram10us]

It set up on the scope tube just ahead of the diles .View attachment 190973

Rum Man

How do expect to keep a scope from moving with only 4 rings!?

 

[Mram10us]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my thread response. If I use the Wheeler level product on the barrel and the top of the MOA one piece mount and use a level to put my scope vertical level with the one piece mount and the top of the rings, I find when I mount my rifle and look thru the scope the vertical is canted a few degrees counterclockwise or to the 11 o'clock position based on how the buttstock fits into the pocket of my shoulder.

Instead of trying to force the vertical reticle back to 12 o'clock which feels unnatural, I have gone to a process where I twist the scope vertical reticle at 12 o'clock when I mount the gun to shoot. That way, even though I may not be level with the top of the rings/MOA mount level, I've got a consistent vertical/horizontal reticle that I can replicate from shot to shot. My barrel doesn't care where reticle is a long as I do the same thing over and over. I never consider the lines on the target itself for alignment...I align the vertical and horizontal posts to level based on how I mount the gun and focus on a target. As I am a hunter more than a target shooter, this is my way of ensuring I get consistent on my mount and consistent on my scope reticle which is tied to my sight-in grouping.

My way of saying I don't see the need for a scope or ring level as it doesn't match my gun mount posture.

With your technique, I would be interested in what a tall target test tells you. My guess is your shots would be left of center.

 

[Mram10us]

For prs matches or things of the sorts that involves multiple shots under time, then getting good at not having a level should probably be a priority.
If you're a brand new military guy just about to go to sniper school, probably expect to not use a level, and get use to using the reticle and the gun itself to guess how straight you are.

For everything else, a bubble doesn't hurt anything. Yes there are some inconsistencies in bubbles, namely in different temps but you'll have just as much inconsistency with lack of experience and shooting on the side of a hill at something else on the side of another hill. It's hard to tell what's truely vertical. FYI accuracy first and some other companies made a mercury bubble level to overcome such issues.

Generally speaking if you're fundamentals are good you don't need a level, but if you a shooting from various terrain, constantly without training into it, a bubble level is a way to help, like a muzzle break on a 6.5 creedmoor for those that can't seem to control their rifles recoil.

I agree with everything except your comment about not needing one if your fundamentals are good. I would argue a person cannot judge if their scope is canted without some indication. Trees,brush and grass don't help. Get you close, but not like a scope level