Lightweight steel vs carbon fiber barrels

[Gamesniper19]

Do you get similar harmonic vibration and heat transfer from the CF barrels as you would expect from a heavier bull or other steel barrel contour?

This is not a standard measurement - There are too many other variables to consider such as barrel steel composition, contour, and weight.
A heavier steel barrel, say heavy sporter or sendero, will have a more consistent harmonic signature than a #2 steel barrel. Heat will also be dispersed within the barrel steel more evenly with more steel material so again, a heavier barrel with "handle" heat better than a #2.

With CF barrels, there is always a steel "liner" The thickness of the steel liner and the subsequent composition of the carbon and resin wrapping the barrel are big factors in how the CF barrel will perform. Manufacturers all use different materials. Generally a well made CF barrel will have a more consistent harmonic signature due to the inherent properties of the CF used. CF is more resilient and more consistent over time than steel. Relatively it does not fatigue versus steel, when comparing equal amounts of material.

The downfall, if you want to call it that, of CF is that it is possible to move heat away from the core of the barrel so much more efficiently that in some cases mirage is a big factor. Moving heat is what we want to extend barrel life and a well made CF barrel will accomplish that, while in the yin and yang of al things, mirage is the by product.
I have 11 CF barreled rifles varying in caliber from 338 Norma to 223 and they all have significant mirage. The AR barrel more then the others due to the heavier volume and rate of fire. Having had a CF barrel on my 223 AR for about 5 years, my new barrel for the rifle will be steel - cut rifled and heavy contour.

 

[Gamesniper19]

No matter how you slice it a carbon barrel is always just a pencil barrel with more mass wrapped around it.

As far as accuracy goes I'm not totally convinced pencil barrels walk when they heat up only because they are warmer. I think it's possible that

1. It's harder to have a perfect load for a pencil barrel harmonics wise
2. Pencil barrels introduce mirage issues that aren't as pronounced with thicker/carbon barrels.

I believe accuracy international found POI issues with fluted barrels that they could not replicate with nonfluted barrels.

Agree with the theory of what you are saying - all barrels have the potential to walk and thinner steel has more propensity to POI shift. The hotter the metal becomes the more pliable it becomes and that is what causes POI shift.

A perfect load is perfect no matter what the thickness or composition of the barrel, what changes the POI of that perfect load is the environment and heat produced by shooting.

Fluting does reduce weight, maybe 10 - 15%. Making the barrel more asthetically pleasing. A product of the fluting is heat release and all the crazy patterns and types of fluting make saying fluting itself is the reason why a barre is or isnt stiffer is a variable that cannot be consistently relied upon, if the fluting is just a pleasing pattern.
Fluting can/does create more stiffness if done correctly and almost all fluting moves heat more efficiently due to larger metal to air surface areas. Heat release is the primary benefit for fluting a barrel, with a small amount of weight savings as a plus.

CF barrels do have mirage and comparing the mirage from a #2 to a sendero CF barrel is not a fair comparison. Too many variables.

AI and a thousand other tests have been conducted with Steel and CF barrels. They will ALL POI shift at various levels based on heat, fire rate, and too many other factors to mention here.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

Fluting can/does create more stiffness if done correctly and almost all fluting moves heat more efficiently due to larger metal to air surface areas. Heat release is the primary benefit for fluting a barrel, with a small amount of weight savings as a plus.

How does removing mass from a barrel make it stiffer?

People like to claim that heat release is is the primary benefit. How much faster does a fluted barrel cool with that added surface area. Theoretically sure, it has more SA so more ambient contact and more release. Yet it's not this insane amount of faster heat dissipation, and in what theoretical situation, especially hunting, is that going to change anything. It looks cool, that's plenty of reason.

Interesting but of reading

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/barrett-owners-help-poi-shift.114228/

In the end. You'll never get a carbon barrel as light as a pencil weight steel barrel with current tech. Until we can rifle carbon fiber and shoot bullets through it there will always be a pencil steel barrel at its core. If you want the lightest you can get it's not a carbon barrel. If you wanted to hang a can off the end then sure the rigidity is a huge benefit, but with a brake who cares.

If you think skinny barrels are ugly and like em thick then buy a carbon, it will probably only be a few ounces heavier.

 

[Gamesniper19]

How does removing mass from a barrel make it stiffer?

People like to claim that heat release is is the primary benefit. How much faster does a fluted barrel cool with that added surface area. Theoretically sure, it has more SA so more ambient contact and more release. Yet it's not this insane amount of faster heat dissipation, and in what theoretical situation, especially hunting, is that going to change anything. It looks cool, that's plenty of reason.

Interesting but of reading

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/barrett-owners-help-poi-shift.114228/

In the end. You'll never get a carbon barrel as light as a pencil weight steel barrel with current tech. Until we can rifle carbon fiber and shoot bullets through it there will always be a pencil steel barrel at its core. If you want the lightest you can get it's not a carbon barrel. If you wanted to hang a can off the end then sure the rigidity is a huge benefit, but with a brake who cares.

If you think skinny barrels are ugly and like em thick then buy a carbon, it will probably only be a few ounces heavier.

Agree with your first statement - the idea of a PROOF CF sendero barrel has never been to be lighter than say a #2. The proven theory for PROOF carbon is:

1. A CF barrel will be lighter than the same contour of steel
2. A CF barrel will have less POI shift than a steel barrel of the same contour
3. A CF barrel will move heat away from the core more efficiently than a steel barrel of the same contour
4. A CF barrel will have longer life than a steel barrel of the same contour, given the parameters of the first 3 points are followed

These points have been proven for one company that I am aware of - PROOF - through military testing that I personally reviewed utilizing a 300 Win mag. Multiples tests with multiple data points substantiated this data.

Now to your can point...putting a brake on the end of a #2 steel barrel can be done and if so, its a fools passion of you expect to have less POI shift and any kind of consistency. For one shot every 60 seconds, maybe it will work but data suggests that is highly doubtful.
Putting a can on the end of a CF sendero barrel is very realistic. There are CF barrels with cans currently in use with Spec Ops units in theater and they are performing better than equal contour steel barrels. Yes I have first hand knowledge of this.

The Rokslide post is interesting although there is not enough data there to draw a conclusion from that post alone.

Absolutely agree with your last thought. A 23 inch steel #2 barrel weighs about 2.5 lbs. No real need for a 2 shot hunting rifle to have a CF barrel if weight savings is the only goal. I would suggest, as one single example, that a 6.5 GAP with a 22 inch #2 steel barrel in a 6 lb rifle running a 140 grain bullet will take most high mountain game in N America. period dot.

 

[KyCarl]

A fluted barrel can not be stiffer than the same barrel un-fluted Also a fluted barrel heats up faster (less mass) than an un-fluted But it also cools faster for the very same reason!

 

[Deleted member 103481]

What that post says is that Barrett as a company wouldn't return that gun to its owner until it shot sub moa on a 5 shot group. A 5 pound 0 contour mountain rifle.

When the owner contacted them that it was walking they said there's something wrong with it mechanically and they fixed it. Not "sorry, thin barrels walk"

They have models with a 5/8 inch bushing for a suppressor that I bet weighs the same as a brake.

I do not agree with the assumption that putting a brake on a thin barrel means one is a fool to expect "any kind of consistency".

 

[Gamesniper19]

A fluted barrel can not be stiffer than the same barrel un-fluted Also a fluted barrel heats up faster (less mass) than an un-fluted But it also cools faster for the very same reason!

True KYcarl - There are varying opinions on whether fluting makes a barrel more stiff or not. According to Bison Ballistics, fluting can make one stiffer. According to Mcgowan barrels it does not. Based on what I read, I believe proper fluting can create more stiffness - minuscule as it may be.
Absolutely agree, heat movement, small weight savings, and asthetics are flutings best attributes.

http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm

This is one of the few truly data driven and scientific studies that outlines our points. Based on the data, your point and mine are true - depending on how we measure stiffness, harmonics etc...I call it an absolute draw and prefer to think of a fluted barrel having more benefit than a non-fluted. In my personal experience, having less heat at the core inherently makes a barrel more accurate and less prone to POI shift.

Now back to the original thread questions I recommend:

• For the lightest weight hunting purposed rifle you can possibly make - a #2 barrel will perform just fine
• Putting a can on a #2 barrel for a 1 shot kill is fine, as long as you are zeroed with the can and the #2 barrel is short enough
• For repeatability over long shooting strings a heavy contour steel barrel or a Sendero CF barrel are best. Very few PRS shooters utilize a barrel less than a #4 contour. As a general rule, they also run 6 and 6.5 calibers that do not require super long barrels or big pauses in shooting strings, there barrels stay hot over the length of the comp
• If you want both shoot ability and weight savings and can afford only one rifle to perform both hunting and PRS style shooting, a sendero CF barrel will be the answer.
• As you stated, if $ is not an issue, do what most people do. Build a purpose built rifle for each need and be happy that if you want to, you can take your PRS rifle hunting too.

 

[adam32]

Agree with your first statement - the idea of a PROOF CF sendero barrel has never been to be lighter than say a #2. The proven theory for PROOF carbon is:

1. A CF barrel will be lighter than the same contour of steel
2. A CF barrel will have less POI shift than a steel barrel of the same contour
3. A CF barrel will move heat away from the core more efficiently than a steel barrel of the same contour
4. A CF barrel will have longer life than a steel barrel of the same contour, given the parameters of the first 3 points are followed

These points have been proven for one company that I am aware of - PROOF - through military testing that I personally reviewed utilizing a 300 Win mag. Multiples tests with multiple data points substantiated this data.

Kinda true...PROOF didn't actually come up with anything on their own...they bought out Mike Degernes of ABS Barrels and went to town on marketing. Mike is/was the true brain behind the barrels...but not the first...Christensen was the first by a long shot.

But they still will never be lighter than a pencil steel barrel.

Also, proper stress relieving plays a much bigger part in the barrel walking than the diameter of the barrel...

 

[Gamesniper19]

What that post says is that Barrett as a company wouldn't return that gun to its owner until it shot sub moa on a 5 shot group. A 5 pound 0 contour mountain rifle.

When the owner contacted them that it was walking they said there's something wrong with it mechanically and they fixed it. Not "sorry, thin barrels walk"

They have models with a 5/8 inch bushing for a suppressor that I bet weighs the same as a brake.

I do not agree with the assumption that putting a brake on a thin barrel means one is a fool to expect "any kind of consistency".

I know Ronny Barrett - having done business with him and personally reviewed his plant and manufacturing process.
The fact that a thin barrel walked and Barrett "fixed it" could be chamber, could be ammunition, could be a loose bolt, could be....could be....could be...thin barrels are capable of good 5 shot groups, continuing it will walk. As stated, a hunting rifle that needs to shoot one critter is fine for a #2 barrel.

The data on heat creating POI shift and that more heat equals a more pliable barrel is proven. Putting a 1 pound can on the end of a pencil thin barrel will create consistency issues. If it didnt, why wouldn't PRS shooters, the military, and others run #2 barrels on their rifles. Unreliable and inconsistent POI shift is why
As stated, if you want to make 1 or 2 shots with a can on a pencil barrel, go ahead. If you want consistency, dont do it.

 

[Gamesniper19]

Kinda true...PROOF didn't actually come up with anything on their own...they bought out Mike Degernes of ABS Barrels and went to town on marketing. Mike is/was the true brain behind the barrels...but not the first...Christensen was the first by a long shot.

But they still will never be lighter than a pencil steel barrel.

You are mostly correct. Mike Goguen, a billionaire venture capitalist, bought 5 companies and put them all together. He bought ABS, Lawrence barrels, defiance actions, lone wolf stocks, Jense precision and now bought a resin company that makes parts for stealth aircraft to improve the barrel performance and heat transfer.

Mike Degerness is no longer with them. Jeff Lawrence is no longer with them, their original marketing guy Derek is no longer with them and they have a difference CEO and VP of manufacturing than they did in 2015. Mike G's only rationale for buying it all is to develop a Automatic barrel that he can sell to the military in large numbers - at some point in the future.

The barrels produced under ABS 8 years ago have very few things in common with the barrels they produce today. The resin compound is different. The carbon fibers themselves are different and applied in a slightly different pattern. The barrel steel is different and the rifling in the barrels is different.
Its true they didnt come up with the original idea. They are attempting to, and what appears to be true today, improving greatly on the original design.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

If you want the lightest you can get it's not a carbon barrel. If you wanted to hang a can off the end then sure the rigidity is a huge benefit, but with a brake who cares.

Now to your can point...putting a brake on the end of a #2 steel barrel can be done and if so, its a fools passion of you expect to have less POI shift and any kind of consistency. [\QUOTE]

I do not agree with the assumption that putting a brake on a thin barrel means one is a fool to expect "any kind of consistency".

As stated, if you want to make 1 or 2 shots with a can on a pencil barrel, go ahead. If you want consistency, dont do it.

Apparently you misread my posts. I never once advocated for putting cans on pencil barrels even though the euros and aussies do it all the time.

You switched mid thought and started tossing brakes into the mix saying one would be a fool to expect consistency out of a braked thin barrel.

Because prs shooters don't use them is not an argument for pencil barrels not being consistent. If you could make a barrel out of unobtainium and make it 40 pounds prs shooters would be like a kid in a candy store

 

[Deleted member 103481]

In the end I have a feeling "packgoatguy" wants to pack goats.

So, if you want an accurate ultralight rifle with a brake on it it doesn't matter both work. If one looks cooler buy that one. If weight is your #1 concern buy a steel barrel. Do your job loading, stalking and shooting and you'll pack goats. Or pack with goats, if that's your prerogative.

 

[Gamesniper19]

Excuse the mistyping of a brake versus a can - fault accepted - I meant can and the point is correct.

PRS shooters want consistency, accuracy, and repeatability. That is exactly the reason we DO NOT use pencil thin barrels. Period dot
Unobtanium...when did Oakley start making barrels with hypothetical material?

A fool would put a 1 lb can on the end of a #2 barrel and expect to get repeatable and consistent performance over any shooting string of more than a few shots.

 

[Gamesniper19]

In the end I have a feeling "packgoatguy" wants to pack goats.

So, if you want an accurate ultralight rifle with a brake on it it doesn't matter both work. If one looks cooler buy that one. If weight is your #1 concern buy a steel barrel. Do your job loading, stalking and shooting and you'll pack goats. Or pack with goats, if that's your prerogative.

Agree