Dead soft brass!

[BoatTail]

Until a couple months ago I had not heard of this. I start this thread in hopes of saving others from the trouble, confusion, wasted time trying to figure out what was wrong and cost of this mistake. While not an expert on this, I'm learning quickly and hope others will lend their expertise to help raise the awareness and knowledge of our forum members on this critical process.

Dead soft brass happens when we improperly over anneal the case shoulder and neck to try to reverse the impact of case hardening due to multiple firings or when a case is work hardened when converting a case from one cartridge to another.

I suggest we share with our Forum members (among other topics) what happens to the case when annealing is done wrong, the wrong and right way to anneal cases, the advantages of annealing, the dangers of improperly over annealing and perhaps discuss some of the commercial and self-made annealer /process options.

I'll start by showing a picture of my large pile of damaged cases from improper annealing. there are about 250 cases here at $73 per 25 cases for Nosler brass, that's a loss of $730. Because they are mixed the lost is probably closer to $500 to $600.

 

[Barrelnut]

Looks like they run the gamut from under annealed to over annealed. What happened?

 

[dok7mm]

Sorry, but I can't see anyone messing up that many cases without figuring out what was wrong.

 

[BoatTail]

I may have started out annealing right but I do know I was not constant. Unfortunately, I found some videos and began following the process used by those who did it wrong. Heating until the shoulder and neck were glowing orange. It wasn't until recently that I found the right instruction showing timed constancy in process and taken them to the right color prior to burn off of the some of the key materials in the case.

This resulted in inconsistent neck tension and other issues. I also had a bad habit of not keeping my brass sorted. When I realized what I did and the issues I was having, I pulled the bullets of those I annealed, adding them to the rest that I suspected were annealed wrong and then tried to sort them. However, I found it impossible to determining which were over annealed, which were right and which were under annealed. If there is a process to determine this I would like to know.

All I know is I started having neck tension issues, wavy shoulders, Neck case folding in on resizing or bullet seating, noticeable bumps behind the shoulder on some and in some cases would find the whole case shortened from multiple of these issues.

Frustrated, and having that glowing orange image burned in my mind of the annealing mistake, I pulled all of them out of my reloading process and bought all new cases.

 

[jasonco]

SMH...What are you using for annealing equipment?

 

[BoatTail]

On the "how I was able to mess up that many cases with out figuring it out", I was doing load development for 3 rifles, a SAAMI 28 Nosler, a Match chambered 28 Nosler and a 30-28 Nosler wildcat. I was going through a lot of cases. The majority of the annealing mistake happened in one long annealing session where I process the cases from all three rifles using the wrong process.

The reality is it happened and from what I have read on other forums there are others who have made that mistake as well.

One individual noted the issue and was told by another how to fix it. He was told to reheat the cases and fast cool them in water. We know that does not work with Brass, only Steel. As I learned, and hope this other individual did as well, that over annealing causes Dead soft brass because you burn off some of the metals that make up the brass.

This example and many of the YouTube videos then show there is a lack of knowledge in our community on the correct process.

 

[BoatTail]

I was not using a commercial annealer. Instead I was using the drill, deep socket, torch and visual method. Which we now know included some incorrect processes and timing issues. In the future I will be acquiring a commercial annealer or building one.

 

[dok7mm]

I started with a BenchSource and Tempilac liquid to determine proper dwell time. After 6-7 years, I switched to an AMP unit for quicker setup and consistent annealing. Expensive, but well worth it.

Though I never tried it, a good many like the melted salt setup. It is a fairly cheap and consistent method, from reviews.

 

[shphtr]

Switched to AMP about two years ago and am very happy. It is fast and consistent and highly flexible for annealing MULTIPLE DIFFERENT brass depending on the caliber/brass that I am working on. I am a very satisfied customer and as an added bonus feel the amt of time I have saved has prob already paid for the annealer.

 

[birdiemc]

Just to be clear, just because we have 1 example of somebody ruining a whole pile of brass does not mean everybody who anneals with a drill, socket, and torch is an idiot and bound for failure and going to blow their head off and blah blah blah.
Before things go down that road again.
OP clearly stated he was heating them till glowing red hot, because he got bad information on how to anneal, not because he as an idiot, or because he had a death wish. It was simply the result of bad information.

So we dont need a bunch of armchair experts demanding that everybody ABSOLUTELY MUST go buy the exact same brand of annealing machine they have. While I'm sure the machines make it nice, they are based on time in the flame In the exact same way my drill holding a socket in the flame is. The difference being possibility of variability in where the flame contacts the case in the handheld method. But if we can hold a rifle steady enough to shoot well enough that we think we need to anneal our brass, I would venture to say we should be capable of holding a case in the same spot within the flame. Then it comes down to how you determine how long to hold it there. And that is something you have to determine with either method, typically tempilaq, and then experience from there.
I guess the salt bath guys can pipe in and say their method is best, which I wouldn't argue, but that comes with a different set of issues.

My sympathies to OP, the fear of doing exactly this kept me from trying, then I started getting split necks so I had some perfectly ruined brass to try on and some great guys on here to help guide me. I was trying to be cheap and impatient and didnt want to get tempilaq at first, but it is really the key for somebody just getting into annealing without an experienced mentor standing over your shoulder. And despite my statements above, I have nothing against annealing machines, I just anticipate a few morons stopping by to say we lower life forms without them don't deserve to breathe the same air as them. But most people here are awesome like the few who have already posted.

 

[BadDogPSD]

Man that really sucks! I appreciate your willingness to share in Hope's of saving others the aggravation and expense of doing it wrong.

 

[Deviant]

I may have started out annealing right but I do know I was not constant. Unfortunately, I found some videos and began following the process used by those who did it wrong. Heating until the shoulder and neck were glowing orange. It wasn't until recently that I found the right instruction showing timed constancy in process and taken them to the right color prior to burn off of the some of the key materials in the case.

This resulted in inconsistent neck tension and other issues. I also had a bad habit of not keeping my brass sorted. When I realized what I did and the issues I was having, I pulled the bullets of those I annealed, adding them to the rest that I suspected were annealed wrong and then tried to sort them. However, I found it impossible to determining which were over annealed, which were right and which were under annealed. If there is a process to determine this I would like to know.

All I know is I started having neck tension issues, wavy shoulders, Neck case folding in on resizing or bullet seating, noticeable bumps behind the shoulder on some and in some cases would find the whole case shortened from multiple of these issues.

Frustrated, and having that glowing orange image burned in my mind of the annealing mistake, I pulled all of them out of my reloading process and bought all new cases.

And this is why I spent the money on an AMP MKII annealer. You were half way there with the amount of money you lost in brass. The internet is a great source of information but it is also polluted with tons of misinformation from idiots.

 

[Alibiiv]

I may have started out annealing right but I do know I was not constant. Unfortunately, I found some videos and began following the process used by those who did it wrong. Heating until the shoulder and neck were glowing orange. It wasn't until recently that I found the right instruction showing timed constancy in process and taken them to the right color prior to burn off of the some of the key materials in the case.

This resulted in inconsistent neck tension and other issues. I also had a bad habit of not keeping my brass sorted. When I realized what I did and the issues I was having, I pulled the bullets of those I annealed, adding them to the rest that I suspected were annealed wrong and then tried to sort them. However, I found it impossible to determining which were over annealed, which were right and which were under annealed. If there is a process to determine this I would like to know.

All I know is I started having neck tension issues, wavy shoulders, Neck case folding in on resizing or bullet seating, noticeable bumps behind the shoulder on some and in some cases would find the whole case shortened from multiple of these issues.

Frustrated, and having that glowing orange image burned in my mind of the annealing mistake, I pulled all of them out of my reloading process and bought all new cases.

Although a costly mistake, I'd like to thank you for sharing your story. This is what this post is all about, helping others to improve their shooting and reloading skill. We read a lot of success stories and posts on these forums, however not too many posters are brave enough to share their mistakes as you have here. Personally I get a lot of information from reading the postings in these threads. I hope that a number of readers, especially those who are just starting out reloading, read this thread that you've posted. Many years ago I started annealing cases with a torch on brass that was sitting in a tray of water that was almost up to the junction where the shoulder meets the outside of the case. When the case turned red the case was tipped over in the water. The brass was military brass and for the most part ruined. I am getting ready to reload some .270 Winchester brass into .270AI brass, I totally intend to use the salt bath ($100) method. I cannot afford to buy one of the more expensive annealers that are on the market. For me I think that the only drawback on the salt bath process is the danger that is involved with the hot salt, other than that it appears to be a straight forward process.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I even anneal my straight wall magnum pistol cases that require a heavy crimp (460, 500, 44 RM). Saves me a ton of money from split necks.

I use an Annealeze and an IR thermometer.

Only time I destroy a case or 2 is on setup.

...and I always anneal in a darkened room. Easier to ascertain the case mouth color that way.