Bear spray vs Bullets

[MontanaRifleman]

In the video of the bear killing the man it took less than five seconds for the death blow to be delivered and even with two men blasting him with bear spray he continued long enough to ensure his victim was injured badly enough to ensure his death.

And that was a tame bear, not one protecting it's territory, not suffering from starvation or just waking up hungry in the spring. Just a tame bear who for a few seconds got carried away.

That is not what happened in the video. The attack was about 6 seconds in duration beigging at time stamp 4:39. At time stamp 4:41, the bear has the man on the ground and the trainer begins to hit the bear with a stick (which I suspect may have angered the bear more). At 4:43 the bear begins to violently shake the man and flip him around like a rag doll. At 4:45 the attendants begin to spray the bear. Approximately a half second later the bear breaks off the attack and retreats. That's what happened. The attendents were not blasting the bear for 5 seconds or anywhere near that. it took half a second of spray to run off the bear. The bear was a trained and still a wild animal. You can never take the wild out of a wild animal. For a short period of time it became extremely territorial. That was an extremely intense and vicious attack. I was read a lot of bear attack accounts and most them are not that intense. Most victims survive the attack and this bear killed the victim in 6 seconds.

Had the attendants starting spraying the bear when the attack began, I am as certain as I can be that the man would have survived. Why? Because the bear broke off the attack the instant it was hit with spray. Can't get much more effective than that.

 

[jmden]

BTW, I'm all in favor of the right to carry firearms in the parks. IMO, that is a 2nd A right. You can now take firearms into YNP but I'm not sure about carrying and I'm not sure what restrictions might be in place.

Just some general info and comments:

A firearms FAQ for one National Park, but should be once size fits all:

Firearms and Other Weapons - Theodore Roosevelt National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Check the Firearms FAQ for the National Park you are going to and make sure you know where the Park boundaries are, what land is beyond the Park boundaries (folks often confuse National Forests with National Parks) and what state you are in so you know the laws in the jurisdiction you're in.

It is my understanding that if you have a concealed carry permit for the state the Nat'l Park is in (or your permit has reciprocity for the state the Nat'l Park is in...), then you can legally carry concealed. If that state allows open carry, then you can open carry.

What I've done here for hiking in concealed carry areas is carry on my pack hip belt with a paddle retained holster (that can easily be slipped into my pants waistband when the pack is off) and made a lightweight cover out of 1.1 oz. silnylon (water tight for this purpose) that is shaped to the gun and slips around the gun and is retained by elastic around the opening. A tab is sewn on top and a flick of the wrist pops the cover off the top of the pistol and the elastic then pulls the cover downwards and away from the pistol as you go to draw. Very fast, very light and helps keep rain off your pistol. Probably not a great description of the cover, but the point is, it conceals your firearm while making it very quick to get to still.

Just have to be very careful of what kind of jurisdiction and state you are in.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I did read what you said. I responded. We are talking about bear spray vs bullets. As far as hiking into the country, to each his own. I will never say or try to deter anybody form doing what he or she wants. Just because I'm not for it doesn't mean others are not either. Just my choice. I love the back country as much as others. Like I also said, I've never been put in that situation an hope I don't! If I do(again) I chose lead. Just because I'm making a differant choice doesn't mean it's a wrong choice. Again, what works for one doesn't mean it works for others.

DT

Dick, I have said it before and I'll say it again. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else choosing lead. In fact, I would defend your right to do so.

I do however believe you do not have an objective view of the big picture. The fact is driving is more dangerous than the possibility of bear attack in the backcountry with or without spray. Unless you're being stupid. That's a plain fact. We have hundreds of thousands of people who venture into the back country (or close proximity, i.e. campgrounds, trails, etc.) of the greater Yellowstone area every year, which is almost overpopulated with griz and black bear. We have maybe 2 bad incidents a year with people and bears and few of those result in fatalities. Those are the facts. If you venture into the backcountry, your chances of demise due to an accident or the elements or both are much greater than being attacked by a bear no matter what you do or don't carry. That's a fact.

Come on up and enjoy yourself and don't let the boogy man spoil a good time.

 

[Wyodog]

I started this post to initiate a god discussion on the options of bear defense. For the most part the discussion has been very good and has given me and hopefully others a little more food for thought. I does seem to me that until the past couple of days we stayed on topic and kept the discussion mostly geared towards healthy debate.

I like to think of myself as the kind of guy that weighs each point of discussion and then make a decision based on the facts. This thread has given me a lot ideas to consider and will help me make an educated decision on what I chose for protection moving forward.

There have been a lot of good arguments so far on both sides of this debate and I believe that the best choice of bear defense is one that you a ready to and efficient at doing so. I think that having a plan of how to best avoid a bear encounter in the first place is very important then even more important is to a plan and means to protect yourself if you end up with a bear encounter. not only do you need a plan; you need to be proficient at executing when the time comes. I for on will be ready as I can be fore I go into the field because that is the one thing I can do to tip the odds in my favor.

 

[Dick Tinsley]

Dick, I have said it before and I'll say it again. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else choosing lead. In fact, I would defend your right to do so.

I do however believe you do not have an objective view of the big picture. The fact is driving is more dangerous than the possibility of bear attack in the backcountry with or without spray. Unless you're being stupid. That's a plain fact. We have hundreds of thousands of people who venture into the back country (or close proximity, i.e. campgrounds, trails, etc.) of the greater Yellowstone area every year, which is almost overpopulated with griz and black bear. We have maybe 2 bad incidents a year with people and bears and few of those result in fatalities. Those are the facts. If you venture into the backcountry, your chances of demise due to an accident or the elements or both are much greater than being attacked by a bear no matter what you do or don't carry. That's a fact.

Come on up and enjoy yourself and don't let the boogy man spoil a good time.

No such thing as the Boogy Man! As far as driving, yes you are right, there is a lot more to be exsposed to. Been doin it for a livin for bout 40 yrs! Just my choice to carry a firearm, an not spray.

DT

 

[Pdvdh]

I started this post to initiate a god discussion on the options of bear defense.

If I'd have known this was intended as a god discussion, I'd have probably cut my losses and avoided participation...

 

[Dick Tinsley]

If I'd have known this was intended as a god discussion, I'd have probably cut my losses and avoided participation...

Plus one!

DT

 

[WildRose]

That is not what happened in the video. The attack was about 6 seconds in duration beigging at time stamp 4:39. At time stamp 4:41, the bear has the man on the ground and the trainer begins to hit the bear with a stick (which I suspect may have angered the bear more). At 4:43 the bear begins to violently shake the man and flip him around like a rag doll. At 4:45 the attendants begin to spray the bear. Approximately a half second later the bear breaks off the attack and retreats. That's what happened. The attendents were not blasting the bear for 5 seconds or anywhere near that. it took half a second of spray to run off the bear. The bear was a trained and still a wild animal. You can never take the wild out of a wild animal. For a short period of time it became extremely territorial. That was an extremely intense and vicious attack. I was read a lot of bear attack accounts and most them are not that intense. Most victims survive the attack and this bear killed the victim in 6 seconds.

Had the attendants starting spraying the bear when the attack began, I am as certain as I can be that the man would have survived. Why? Because the bear broke off the attack the instant it was hit with spray. Can't get much more effective than that.

Try reading that again. The fatal bite was delivered in the first five seconds. Everything that followed is really irrelevant.

Yes the bear released him finally after being sprayed but the attack continued during the spraying and for a second or two after.

It only took a very few seconds for the fatal injury to be inflicted.

 

[Wyodog]

If I'd have known this was intended as a god discussion, I'd have probably cut my losses and avoided participation...

Sorry meant to write good discussion however ill take help from god or anyone else if I get attacked by a bear. And for the record...I give my permission for someone to shoot any bear that is attacking me.... please don't wait for him to stop.

 

[HARPERC]

Jon,
I haven't seen the outcome perhaps you know, the hiker that shot a bear in Glacier last year was charged with discharging the firearm. Specifically it was stated it's legal to carry in the Park but illegal to fire it.

Strange case, one report has him spraying the bear then shooting it?

 

[Pdvdh]

This grizzly wasn't stopped by bear spray, but was stopped by a bullet. There were reportedly no witnesses.

Gun charge against man who shot Glacier grizzly bear dismissed

"Murphy, he said, did not fire his .357 revolver until the charging bear – a grizzly, Holden said DNA tests later confirmed – was 7 to 10 feet away, and not until bear spray discharged when the animal was 15 to 25 feet away failed to deter it."

"When Mr. Murphy first saw the bear it was running down a hill toward the other hikers," Holden said. "He yelled, 'Bear!' to warn them, and as soon as he yelled, the bear turned and came straight at him."

More on guns in national parks: Park Service: 4 Glacier gun incidents an anomaly

Murphy first discharged his bear spray using his left hand, and when that didn't stop the animal, fired with the .357 in his right hand, according to Holden.

"The bear fell back and was motionless," Holden said. Murphy "withdrew and double-timed it out of there, taking the two hikers who were behind him with him.

More info on guns in National Parks: Park Service: 4 Glacier gun incidents an anomaly

 

[HARPERC]

Thanks for the link!

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Try reading that again. The fatal bite was delivered in the first five seconds. Everything that followed is really irrelevant.

Yes the bear released him finally after being sprayed but the attack continued during the spraying and for a second or two after.

It only took a very few seconds for the fatal injury to be inflicted.

Wildrose, I have to wonder if you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts or just severely dysfunctionally biased.

1) Nowhere in the video does it say that " The fatal bite was delivered in the first five seconds." Please cite the quote and time stamp. You will not be able to because it doesn't exist. I'll give you a chance to quote the ACTUAL description of the victims death. If you can't I will and I will provide a time stamp.

2) You said the attack continued a second or two after the bear was attacked. A second or two isn't bad for getting a beast off you, but the fact is you are misrepresenting that as well. It took no longer than a half a second for the bear to break off after being sprayed. Once again please provide the time stamp. I have already done so.


There are two kinds of people in this world. One kind who see the world for what it really is and another kind who only see it for what they want to see it as.

 

[WildRose]

Wildrose, I have to wonder if you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts or just severely dysfunctionally biased.

1) Nowhere in the video does it say that " The fatal bite was delivered in the first five seconds." Please cite the quote and time stamp. You will not be able to because it doesn't exist. I'll give you a chance to quote the ACTUAL description of the victims death. If you can't I will and I will provide a time stamp.

2) You said the attack continued a second or two after the bear was attacked. A second or two isn't bad for getting a beast off you, but the fact is you are misrepresenting that as well. It took no longer than a half a second for the bear to break off after being sprayed. Once again please provide the time stamp. I have already done so.


There are two kinds of people in this world. One kind who see the world for what it really is and another kind who only see it for what they want to see it as.

You are again questioning my honesty while misrepresenting what I stated.

The bear bit down on his head immediately and went to shaking him within the first five seconds. I never said anyone on the video made such a statement, it is an observation.

Secondly the bear did not react at all to the first dose of spray, he continued while both men were spraying him and then broke off the attack.

A couple of seconds is the difference between life and death. Had the bear been shot within the first couple of seconds the man might have survived. A bear that size however has the jaw power to crush and bite through your skull in a single bite.

Now I've been more than reasonable and polite. Question my honesty again and I'm done with you permanently.

You aren't scoring any points and you aren't convincing anyone here of anything other than your own obstinance.

Choose whatever methods of self defense you are comfortable with and so will the rest of us.