Why can’t we get good dies!

Even worse than popping(clicking) extraction is when extraction isn't successful with bolt turn. When an action/bolt mis-timing, leaves you pulling backward to try and free a stuck case.. Awful feeling

I'm talking about addressing interference fit from what I refer to as the webline.
This is the earliest widest diameter of a fire formed case.
Webline2.jpg

It's my datum for MyMax(my words) pressure testing.

What happens behind that is another matter to manage with various combinations of causes.
Things that cause webs which should push purely parallel to the chamber to hammer outward, perpendicular to the chamber.
Excess breech clearance, excess headspace w/a wet/oily chamber, soft cartridge brass alloy, and again, weak breech support.
So far when I've run into this, the pockets loosened before I hit extraction issues. That is, while I was not way too high in load pressures.

On benefit of tighter clearances, I can suggest there is not a detriment where planned & pursued correctly. There is a long term consistency benefit in that cases should not be replaced nearly as often, mainly because restoration sizing goes to a whole new level of minimum. I have a fitted 26wssm (mag dia) that requires zero body sizing with SAAMI max loads. Infinite case life.
So if I were a BR shooter, actually competitive or not, I could scratch off that much from the grind.
 
Last edited:
Mikecr said:
Even worse than popping(clicking) extraction is when extraction isn't successful with bolt turn. When an action/bolt mis-timing, leaves you pulling backward to try and free a stuck case.. Awful feeling

I'm talking about addressing interference fit from what I refer to as the webline.
This is the earliest widest diameter of a fire formed case.
View attachment 277133
It's my datum for MyMax(my words) pressure testing.

What happens behind that is another matter to manage with various combinations of causes.
Things that cause webs which should push purely parallel to the chamber to hammer outward, perpendicular to the chamber.
Excess breech clearance, excess headspace w/a wet/oily chamber, soft cartridge brass alloy, and again, weak breech support.
So far when I've run into this, the pockets loosened before I hit extraction issues. That is, while I was not way too high in load pressures.

On benefit of tighter clearances, I can suggest there is not a detriment where planned & pursued correctly. There is a long term consistency benefit in that cases should not be replaced nearly as often, mainly because restoration sizing goes to a whole new level of minimum. I have a fitted 26wssm (mag dia) that requires zero body sizing with SAAMI max loads. Infinite case life.
So if I were a BR shooter, actually competitive or not, I could scratch off that much from the grind.
Click to expand...

When you refer to the area you labeled "Web Line" in the photo as your datum for pressure testing, do you measure the diameter at this point and have a maximum value for the expansion level that you use as maximum ? If so, what is your maximum amount of tolerable expansion ? Also, is this the point on the cartridge case that Ken Waters used to call the pressure ring when he measured case expansion to determine his maximum loads in his Pet Loads column he wrote ?
 
Yeah, pressure ring is probably the same as my redneck web line.
I run the test with NEW cases that I've culled out of lot for thickness variances(but same overall thickness).
Just going up & up in charges until I reach a point where FL sizing would be required immediately.
A point I call MyMax. Don't know what else to call it.
Again, that's a single firing of new brass, with my local stuff. And it's not fire formed brass.

I use a blade mic w/base & shims (but calipers also work) to measure growth at the pressure ring. As I go up from minimum I'll see up to around 1thou steady growth, then plateau, and at some point several charges higher I'll see a step change of another ~1/2thou (runaway). So far I've found the plateau breaks into that runaway on passing SAAMI max, per QuickLoad.
The last plateau charge is logged as MyMax, which I'll stay under during load development and any future changes(per QL pressure est.). This example is with typical chamber clearances from new brass dimension of around 2thou near webs.

As consistent as this has worked out for me, I have to wonder if the folks at SAAMI do the same.
With new brass, but in an instrumented test barrel.
Maybe common knowledge, I just don't know. I never did this test to determine pressure, and I don't really care about what the pressures are. Instead, what I care about are pressure 'problems', which I may run into during this testing (before MyMax).

The 'problem' I'm forcing here is where cases yield to plastic.
Brass has memory. It wants to go where it's been, and that makes sense when you consider grain structure breaking inside it.
Brass fired even once at MyMax will go right back there, on next firing, no matter the sizing plan. This is because you can never truly recover brass that's yielded(even with annealing). The puzzle pieces (grain structure) will never fit or grow the same again.

I actually learned this in a 7th grade reloading class (1976). The testing was demonstrated & discussed.
They probably don't teach reloading or even hunter safety in public schools anymore..
 
Mikecr said:
Yeah, pressure ring is probably the same as my redneck web line.
I run the test with NEW cases that I've culled out of lot for thickness variances(but same overall thickness).
Just going up & up in charges until I reach a point where FL sizing would be required immediately.
A point I call MyMax. Don't know what else to call it.
Again, that's a single firing of new brass, with my local stuff. And it's not fire formed brass.

I use a blade mic w/base & shims (but calipers also work) to measure growth at the pressure ring. As I go up from minimum I'll see up to around 1thou steady growth, then plateau, and at some point several charges higher I'll see a step change of another ~1/2thou (runaway). So far I've found the plateau breaks into that runaway on passing SAAMI max, per QuickLoad.
The last plateau charge is logged as MyMax, which I'll stay under during load development and any future changes(per QL pressure est.). This example is with typical chamber clearances from new brass dimension of around 2thou near webs.

As consistent as this has worked out for me, I have to wonder if the folks at SAAMI do the same.
With new brass, but in an instrumented test barrel.
Maybe common knowledge, I just don't know. I never did this test to determine pressure, and I don't really care about what the pressures are. Instead, what I care about are pressure 'problems', which I may run into during this testing (before MyMax).

The 'problem' I'm forcing here is where cases yield to plastic.
Brass has memory. It wants to go where it's been, and that makes sense when you consider grain structure breaking inside it.
Brass fired even once at MyMax will go right back there, on next firing, no matter the sizing plan. This is because you can never truly recover brass that's yielded(even with annealing). The puzzle pieces (grain structure) will never fit or grow the same again.

I actually learned this in a 7th grade reloading class (1976). The testing was demonstrated & discussed.
They probably don't teach reloading or even hunter safety in public schools anymore..
Click to expand...
Unfortunately kids can't wear a t-shirt with a gun on it.
Even if it is a coffee company!
 
Stiltsville said:
Here's what is not clear in all these posts.

Please answer these questions.

1. Are you shooting loads that do not exceed max ?
2. Does you chamber meet SAMMI specs ?
3. Are you able to rechamber a fired cartridge ?
4. Are you using the correct dies for your cartridge ?
5. After you resize a cartridge on those dies will it chamber ?
6. After you reload a cartridge on those dies will it chamber ?

If you answer all 6 "yes" you have no problem.

If NOT please be VERY specific describing your issue.

I have yet to meet a cartridge, reloaded on good dies for that cartridge, that will not chamber in a factory rifle chambered for that cartridge.

We cannot help w/o a COMPLETE narrative of the problem !
Click to expand...
After firing the cartridge there is no longer a cartridge. There is only reloadable brass.
 
We have "fought" clickers for 30+ years.

The first lesson to learn, never use calipers to measure the web, use a good micrometer that measures to the 0.0001, and it does not take a very expensive micrometer. A machinist would tell you to never use a caliper to measure in these small increments for reliable results.

I have Helios, Starrett, Brown and Sharp, and Mitutoyo dial calipers, but when measuring diameters in the web, I always reach for a micrometer because .0005 is the difference between a clicker and no clicker.

This inexpensive brand is an excellent micrometer for the reloader, and it will last you a lifetime:
www.ebay.com

Shars 0-1" x 0.0001" Outside Micrometer Solid Metal Frame New Save $12.34 !} | eBay

THIMBLE Rachet Stop. accuracy of <0.3µm +(L(mm)/1200) µm. You may ask for freight cost before buying tools. Fitted case.
www.ebay.com

Clickers are a function of Reamer design, New brass design, and Full length die dimension, and machining techniques that will cut to true reamer dimension. Reamers wear over time.

Sage advise an old German Gunsmith taught me:

A. Measure your new brass at the web
B. measure fire formed brass at the web or .200 line
C. Measure brass at the web or .200 line where the bolt handle starts to feel the slightest amount of resistance
D. Measure the Brass at the web at the .200 line where a Clicker occurs or where increased bolt lift is noticeable
E. Measure the dimension of the brass at the web where the FULL length sizer reduces the web
Record all dimensions to the .0001
Learning to work off the numbers vs working off of feel gives you a very clear understanding. Never forget that brass can vary over 6% Rockwell hardness within a lot number, so soft brass will show issues sooner.

You will find various dimensional differences between Winchester, Remington, Federal then you go to the Europen brass: Norma, Lapua, PPU, Hertenberger, and RWS to find dimensions can vary greatly depending on brand. Then throw in dimensional differences between Peterson, AGD, and Alpha, another can of worms.

If you are working off of hard numbers, you have a good chance of working out web dimensions and sizing dies.

Many accuracy nodes exist at Peak pressure or near peak pressure, in which case, these dimensions become even more important.

Production die reamers wear also, and when they do, they may produce a die that is smaller than spec, giving you clickers.

European brass used in SAAMI spec chambers can be a nightmare.

A basic question to ask yourself, "how much over new brass dimension should my chamber be?"

For Example: new 223 brass in a couple of brands, web dimensions:

Winchester- .3700
Hornady - .3715-.3720
Nosler - .3722
 
Last edited:
VinceMule said:
We have "fought" clickers for 30+ years.

The first lesson to learn, never use calipers to measure the web, use a good micrometer that measures to the 0.0001, and it does not take a very expensive micrometer. A machinist would tell you to never use a caliper to measure in these small increments for reliable results.

I have Helios, Starrett, Brown and Sharp, and Mitutoyo dial calipers, but when measuring diameters in the web, I always reach for a micrometer because .0005 is the difference between a clicker and no clicker.

This inexpensive brand is an excellent micrometer for the reloader, and it will last you a lifetime:
www.ebay.com

Shars 0-1" x 0.0001" Outside Micrometer Solid Metal Frame New Save $12.34 !} | eBay

THIMBLE Rachet Stop. accuracy of <0.3µm +(L(mm)/1200) µm. You may ask for freight cost before buying tools. Fitted case.
www.ebay.com

Clickers are a function of Reamer design, New brass design, and Full length die dimension, and machining techniques that will cut to true reamer dimension. Reamers wear over time.

Sage advise an old German Gunsmith taught me:

A. Measure your new brass at the web
B. measure fire formed brass at the web or .200 line
C. Measure brass at the web or .200 line where the bolt handle starts to feel the slightest amount of resistance
D. Measure the Brass at the web at the .200 line where a Clicker occurs or where increased bolt lift is noticeable
E. Measure the dimension of the brass at the web where the FULL length sizer reduces the web
Record all dimensions to the .0001
Learning to work off the numbers vs working off of feel gives you a very clear understanding. Never forget that brass can vary over 6% Rockwell hardness within a lot number, so soft brass will show issues sooner.

You will find various dimensional differences between Winchester, Remington, Federal then you go to the Europen brass: Norma, Lapua, PPU, Hertenberger, and RWS to find dimensions can vary greatly depending on brand. Then throw in dimensional differences between Peterson, AGD, and Alpha, another can of worms.

If you are working off of hard numbers, you have a good chance of working out web dimensions and sizing dies.

Many accuracy nodes exist at Peak pressure or near peak pressure, in which case, these dimensions become even more important.

Production die reamers wear also, and when they do, they may produce a die that is than spec, giving you clickers.

European brass used in SAAMI spec chambers can be a nightmare.

A basic question to ask yourself, "how much over new brass dimension should my chamber be?"
Click to expand...
Good write-up
It's too bad that a manufacturing standard for reamers, chambers, brass and dies wasn't in SAAMI to tie all these requirements together and certified. Right now it seems like it's the wild west and a lot of finger pointing to determine the villain. Spec's are expensive to produce and input of all players involved to get agreement. SAAMI has a broader requirement on this one brass feature .008" and reamer diameter .002". That's all we have. Too late to fix what's already in use. It's the reloaders problem now.
 
+1, Mike! When designing a wild cat, I buy the brass and dies first, then design the reamer, remembering that the reamer makers have a +/- 0.0005 tolerance.

Lapua brass in 223, 22/250, 243, and 30/06 are perfect examples of how SAAMI differs from CIP (European) Specifications. Ever wonder why Tikka and Sako have such long throats?
 

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