What fps do I need to get a 180 grain Barnes TTSX bullet to expand properly?

[dawnpatrol]

Hi all,

People love the Barnes TTSX ammo (as do I, for the non-lead), but it doesn't give me the devastating results I've read about. Is it because my rifle isn't shooting it fast enough?

Here's my deal: I shoot factory loaded 180 grain Barnes Vor-TX ammunition out of my CZ 550 American (26 inch barrel with no muzzle brakes or anything) chambered in 30-06 Springfield. I've killed two large bull elk with this setup, but not been very impressed with the bullet performance inside the critter. I get good penetration (always through and through), but I only see little bullet-sized clean holes through the vitals. Seems like the bullets are not expanding (though I never recover them, so I cant be sure), and I've read on other posts that TTSX bullets have trouble expanding at low speeds.

Manufacturer says the bullet should leave the gun at 2700 fps. That ought to be fast enough, or is it?

I could get up to around 3000 fps by dropping down to 150 grain bullets, but would that be enough bullet for an elk?

Any ideas (other than the obvious: (1) don't shoot a 30-06 and (2) learn to handload)?

 

[dawnpatrol]

I guess another way to ask this question is, if I want to stay with the Barnes Vor-TX ammo, is 165 grains of TTSX going 2800 fps (or 150 grains of TTSX going 2970 fps) enough to kill elk?

 

[FearNoWind]

Bullet expansion characteristics, in addition to the bullet's design, include factors of velocity combined with target density. The bullet's expansion relative to its velocity is not directly proportional to it's muzzle velocity'; it's relative to its velocity at the target. The target density would, obviously, depend on what the bullet comes into contact with while entering and passing through the target.
Not at all a fair comparison, but as an example taking it to extremes, your bullet is unlikely to expand much as it passes through a soft cardboard backed target during load development. But when it hits the berm it flattens out very well.

 

[dawnpatrol]

That makes sense about the speed that counts being the speed on impact.

The part about target density also makes sense. I once shot a deer with this setup and got the same result (clean pass through with no bullet expansion). At the time, I chalked it up not enough mass in the target (and that might have been the case). But it seems like the body cavity of a large elk would have more than enough mass/density to make this bullet expand, no?

Thanks very much!

 

[HarryN]

It isn't quite the same thing, but somewhat "similar" copper bullets from GS custom would need a 1:9 twist barrel and 1600 fps MINIMUM at the target to expand.

From what I can tell, GS Custom's bullets expand at lower velocities that the Barnes, and you sort of see the range of "claim", conservative GSC to more aggressive Barnes marketing.

Cutting Edge also has some good bullets which expand fairly well, not as much as the GSC HVs, but decent.

Your observation is exactly why I keep suggesting to people that if they are going to use mono metal bullets, they should move up 1 - 2 calibers for the same application. Probably the right copper bullet for your 30-06 is around 140 grains, unless it is faster twist than normal.

In order to really benefit from using copper bullets, it might make sense to use one that has very low friction on the barrel so that it can really get its velocity up compared to a jacketed lead bullet, hence the piston ring concept.

 

[HarryN]

Monolithic Munitions sells quite good quality pre-loaded ammo with GSC 130 grain HVs for 30-06. Theirs are rated at 3200 FPS, which is pretty quick, but in-line with the bullet design concept.

 

[HARPERC]

Bullet expansion characteristics, in addition to the bullet's design, include factors of velocity combined with target density. The bullet's expansion relative to its velocity is not directly proportional to it's muzzle velocity'; it's relative to its velocity at the target. The target density would, obviously, depend on what the bullet comes into contact with while entering and passing through the target.
Not at all a fair comparison, but as an example taking it to extremes, your bullet is unlikely to expand much as it passes through a soft cardboard backed target during load development. But when it hits the berm it flattens out very well.

All correct. I think another factor is the variations in hardness of the Barnes. At one time we observed a variety of terminal results, and got curious if we could get the hollow point a little deeper we could get more expansion.

We chucked the bullets in a small lathe, and from the same box, found those that cut quite readily (drill bit"), and those we could not cut at all.

Abandoned the idea, but gave that batch of bullets to an economy minded young fellow. He shot a few deer, and the "softer" ones that hollow pointed easily produced dramatic kills, and the "harder" ones still killed, but showed less destruction of tissue, and not quite as sudden as the others.

Quite awhile ago now, and things change. There are other brands out there at this time. It couldn't hurt to look at other factory offerings like the Hornady Superformance GMX if your like mono-metal, the SST if you would like a change.

Nothing wrong with a 30-06 by the way.

 

[FEENIX]

Hi all,

People love the Barnes TTSX ammo (as do I, for the non-lead), but it doesn't give me the devastating results I've read about. Is it because my rifle isn't shooting it fast enough?

Here's my deal: I shoot factory loaded 180 grain Barnes Vor-TX ammunition out of my CZ 550 American (26 inch barrel with no muzzle brakes or anything) chambered in 30-06 Springfield. I've killed two large bull elk with this setup, but not been very impressed with the bullet performance inside the critter. I get good penetration (always through and through), but I only see little bullet-sized clean holes through the vitals. Seems like the bullets are not expanding (though I never recover them, so I cant be sure), and I've read on other posts that TTSX bullets have trouble expanding at low speeds.

Manufacturer says the bullet should leave the gun at 2700 fps. That ought to be fast enough, or is it?

I could get up to around 3000 fps by dropping down to 150 grain bullets, but would that be enough bullet for an elk?

Any ideas (other than the obvious: (1) don't shoot a 30-06 and (2) learn to handload)?

My hunting buddy harvested a MT bull elk in 2013 using the same factory ammo except in .300 Win Mag. His first two shots where in the lung area (both passed through) and the third and third final shot was on front shoulder.

All shot where within 100 yards. We recovered the bullet and it penetrated half way through and mushroomed perfectly.

I know you said you shot them on the vital area but have you considered a different shot placement, i.e., lungs vs shoulder area?