What could cause group outliers?

[VinceMule]

This is what I did:

A. got rid of the 178g Hornady's. Then purchased 175 sierra MK and TMK, 168g Sierra MK, 169g Sierra Mk

B. use Lapua brass

C. I anneal brass with a propane torch and bread pan, been using this method for years, it works easy and quickly

D. Dies, went with a bushing die with an expander ball, then use a 21st-century expander for case neck uniform tension.

E. cleaning, I bought a Teslong bore scope, and keep the carbon down to a minimum. Learned the hard way that
Clean patches do not mean a clean barrel.

F. as freebores start getting long, you can not account for crazy flyers. I had a very short freebore Palma chamber ' put in a used Krieger 10T, 31" barrel cut back to 28"....she shoots 1" at 300 in a calm day.

 

[Louisiana Reloader]

I've got a stock Savage 111 25-06 that will shoot .5 MOA with first three shots. Anything after those first three and the sporter barrel gets hot and groups open up to at least 1 MOA.

Its current diet is mostly 115 Bergers but it will do it with a 100 grain TTSX load too. Same thing with 100 grain Sierra Game Kings I used to shoot.

For deer hunting and the occasional coyote it's no big deal.

Amen on the 25-06 sported barrel getting warm—you are exactly right. I have a Browning X-Bolt in 25-06 and both my daughters shoot SAKO A7 25-06's and we definitely have to let the barrels cool. Our hunting loads are 100gr Barnes TTSX bullets and they shoot great and have great results on North Louisiana Whitetails.

 

[VinceMule]

As the barrel gets hot, the 4th and 5th shot will lay down some copper, count on it.

I use a mixture of 50/50 Rubbing alcohol and water, rubbed on the barrel with a dripping wet wash cloth. The solution evaporates, taking barrel heat with it. When using this method, you must apply enough liquid to the point to where it is dripping off the bottom of the barrel. You will not believe how fast this method cools a barrel.

 

[Salmonhead]

Couple of thoughts
If its always the last shot, something is heating up and touching. Double check action screws with a torque wrench when its hot. Check the barrel channel also.
If you are magazine feeding during the string, is the last one getting beat back into the case from recoil, therefore screwing with your seat depth?

Will be curious to hear if you isolate the issue.

 

[Matt_C]

Also how long are you taking between each shot? Could be barrel heating up. Is the flyer always the last shot?

 

[Stonyman88]

I have what seems like a good load developed using 178 ELDM bullets with TS 15.5 in Lapua brass but I'm experiencing odd fliers. SD is ~10 fps over a large number of loads and velocity is averaging 2590 fps. On average, out of 4 shot groups (odd number but it's how many my internal mag holds so thats usually what I do with this rifle) I'll have 3 making up a 2/3 MOA (or less) group and the other shot is 1.5 to 2 inches away. Sometimes this is 2 of 4 touching, sometimes is just a good group for all 4 shots. This rifle will generally shoot just under 1 MOA groups with a good load: no match rifle but fliers are not the norm. However, it is a bit picky of a barrel: not all projectiles shoot well in it.

I'm inclined to chock it up to one (or more) of a the following causes:

1. These are pandemic projectiles so perhaps I may have a not-so-good batch.
2. My jump maybe in a sensitive spot (only tried one jump so far), although I do check the CBTO on all rounds and they're quite consistant showing a variance of about 1 to 1.5 thousandths.
3. These are just not a good bullet for this picky barrel.

I'm interested to know what more experienced people think. Thanks in advance.

No idea, but years ago I had a similar issue, and sure you did already, check this gun with a different scope if your using one. What kind are you using, mine would shoot 2-4 OK shots or groups, then one would go south, found out the scope was bad, sometimes the cross hairs would stay put then jump, the seem to stick just off center, then go back to be correct, Factory said the ??? came lose on one end. They replaced it with a new one. Now I use Arken or Vortex scopes, for the price and performance they are unbeatable in my opinion and shoot out to 800 yds.

 

[SuperBruce]

Thanks for all the feedback re barrel getting hot. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to be it. It's not always the last shot and I can shoot consistent 4 round (or more) groups without fliers using other loads.

I'm going to try messing with the jump and if that doesn't solve it move on. The sad part is I have a really shot internal mag, much longer than 2.810" and it doesn't feed well, but maybe it will work out anyway.

 

[VinceMule]

Bench techniques have a LOT to do with flyers. Bi Pods, hop the forearm during recoil...bullet still in the barrel .200 of recoil. Bag squeezers can have issues instead of gripping(holding down) the forearm.

 

[billflangjr813]

In a hunting gun.... don't let barrel get warm.....
I shoot the same target 2-5 days in a row.
1 shot... only
With dirty barrel.....

Your as picky as me !! I don't feel so bad any more !! Love it !!

 

[RidgeTop]

In a hunting gun.... don't let barrel get warm.....
I shoot the same target 2-5 days in a row.
1 shot... only
With dirty barrel.....

What are your results doing that - 1 shot each day?

 

[leclairk]

Like was suggested earlier, you should listen to the podcast from Hornady, Your Groups Are Too Small. There are 2 parts. The simplest answer for you is your gun doesn't like the powder or it doesn't like the bullet. You're going to chase your tail trying to tweak a load that was never going to work for your gun from the get go. You don't have fliers, that is the group size your gun will shoot with that load.

 

[Txcowboy50]

Is the flyer random in the shot string or is it the same in each, i.e. First, last, other?

If first shot it, barrel may need fouling. If last shot your barrel could be over heating if you do not take adequate time between shots.

 

[RidgeTop]

Let someone else shoot the rifle.

Re Temp: I have taken my IR temp gauge to the range. The hottest part of the barrel is about 8 to 10 inches down the barrel. When you think it is too hot by touch it is nowhere near what would be a factor for steel.
I take several rifles to the range and rotate them. Stand them in a rack, action open and they cool quickly.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

My SERIOUS "Guess" is that, the Bullet is, NOT getting truly, "Stable" in, the 18 Inch Barrel, as some shots are, good,.. others,.. UN-stable.
Switch Bullets,.. maybe, a Flat Based Bullet, would work ??? Or try, a Sierra G-King ???
See,.. VinceMule's,.. Post 15 # A,..
Or SLOW it,.. Down ??