What can't .223 kill?

[garys43077]

What can't a .223 kill?

It can't kill my good mood as long as I'm still shooting.

I'm not going to bother with the military round argument. But a friend of my hunts deer with his AR-15 and 64gr W-W power points. They have never failed him, but he has never failed the round either. By that I mean he choses his shots wisely.

I hear there are guys that actually hunt large animals with a bow and arrow. So if that works, why not use a .223? Just realize that shooting an elk, or a big hog, in the *** with a .223 is not going to be pretty, same as with a arrow. So don't do that.

All that said, I think the .223 gets it's "killing" power from shot placement (it's easy to hit with) and velocity. Hitting is up to you, velocity is also dependant on you to an extent. Too far and you don't have enough velocity for creating a permanent wound cavity. With a .223 and larger game (deer) shot from a hunting rifle, not an M-4, that's probably a 200-300 yards maximum endeavor. If you enjoy the challenge of limiting yourself, then have fun with your .223. To me, it just seems un-American, going against the bigger is better way of life we are trying to live on this site, you know, Long Range Hunting.

 

[Flametop7]

I was wondering for you guys that hunt with the .223. Did the bullet mushroom like other rounds or did they tend to retain their shape? It was my understanding that the military's ammo tend to tumble when they hit their "target". What has anyone observed?

 

[eaglesnester]

What bullet were you using? Sounds like a FMJ on the steel plate but that wouldn't leave a big hole on a pig. I'd be interested in finding a bullet to use on crop damage whitetails out of a .223 but always considered a .223 too small.

Try a 52grain Burger. They are un believable on game and steel plates.

 

[rem700-3]

I shoot a 55gr hornady sxsp in all my .22 cal centerfires and have never had a reason to try anything else. I am fortunate enough that killing hogs is kinda part of my job (one of the best perks) I am now at 364 for the year and all but 3 are with a youth 223 (which has been used to kill 539) because it is truck friendly. Head or neck and size does not matter they drop instantly, you do need to pick the shots because tracking will not be as easy as with a larger bullet. I have always said that if being charged by an angry elephant I would want the biggest gun I could carry, but I think that a head shot on a feeding bull from a .223 at 150 yards or less and you would need a big knife. over average guns are for under average shooters.

 

[J E Custom]

I shoot a 55gr hornady sxsp in all my .22 cal centerfires and have never had a reason to try anything else. I am fortunate enough that killing hogs is kinda part of my job (one of the best perks) I am now at 364 for the year and all but 3 are with a youth 223 (which has been used to kill 539) because it is truck friendly. Head or neck and size does not matter they drop instantly, you do need to pick the shots because tracking will not be as easy as with a larger bullet. I have always said that if being charged by an angry elephant I would want the biggest gun I could carry, but I think that a head shot on a feeding bull from a .223 at 150 yards or less and you would need a big knife. over average guns are for under average shooters.

There is no doubt that a 223 will kill a hog if shot placement is perfect, but in the real world
a perfect shot is not allways possible. and we need to kill every hog we see.

I have hunted hogs all my life with pistol,rifle ,bow and with dogs and a knife. and had some
very bad encounters with wounded hogs. and in some areas tracking is not only not possible
but also not recomended unless you have a death wish.

Hogs are one of the most dangerous animals in the world and must be respected.

That being said, This is a case where there is no such thing as OVER KILL. and I prefer to drop
them where they stand. I have shot them with almost every caliber including the 17 HMR and
if I am hunting only hogs I will use anything from a 7/08 to a 450 bushmaster and take them
where they are or with whatever shot they present to me without fear of only wounding them.

If I am hunting and have a 223 or something in it's class I do as you and take head shots or if
they are running I don't care as long as I make them squeal , and I don't worry about tracking.

With a large enough rifle and the proper terrain I love shooting them on the run. 5 is the most
I have killed with a bolt action at one time (Ran out of bullets) but the most in one setting was
7 the range was unlimited and they just had to stop and look back.

I don't know how many I have killed over the 50+ years of hunting but I would never
purposely take a 223 when I have other choices. (It's like taking a knife to a gun fight).

I would never tell another person what to hunt with I would only recomend not to do it.
After all It only takes one time to have a bad encounter and if you can avoid it why not.

Think of it this way, Would you go bear hunting with a 223 ? well I can tell you for sure
a 3 or 400 pound hog will kill and eat a 400 pound bear and the realy big hogs have no
natural predators except man and only because man can use tools to take even the
biggest animals.

The 223 is best suited for varmints and people and that is as it should be.

Just my opinion.

J E CUSTOM

 

[rem700-3]

I dont have 50+ but I have 40 years of being primarily a hog hunter and have hunted with everything from dogs and duct tape ( my favorite way) to 300 win mag. I have killed well over 100 or 2 a year average in that time with a 223 and been very satisfied with it. Yes I would bear hunt with a 223, hell I would elephant hunt with one as long as someone was with me with a larger rifle in case we were charged before i got a shot!! Nothin that breathes air can take a well placed bullet over 3000 fps. I wont argue the point, I dont have to guess at it I have done it sucessfully for years.

 

[knc1105]

Two ranch hands on a huge ranch in Bosque Co. Texas feed there families most of the year on wild hog. Lupe uses a 22 LR and shots them behind the ear and never shoots over 50 yds. Angel uses a 270 and shoots where ever he wants. I have a safe full of AR's and had fallen out of love with them until I found an old stash of 60 gr. Nosler Solid Base bullets from the early 1980's. I have always said the bullet you shoot is as important as the caliber. Why in the hell they stopped making that bullet I'll never know. Whitetail deer would crumble and never take a step with that bullet. I can't remember ever having to track anything with that bullet. That was whitetails and pigs to about 250lbs.and 200 yards or less. I was using 69 gr MTK's when I had shot a pig twice, running shot broke his back infront of hind quarters, then one to the head at 200 yrds. Walked up to him, still alive trying to pull himself on front legs. Shot him between the eyes at 10-15 nyds and he charged me on two legs, I jumped out of his way and shot him in the ear and finally dropped him. The between the eyes shot did not even penetrate the skull, it run up his skull and skint off a streamer of hide 1/4" wide and about 7" long that looked like a curly fry. I've been using AR-10's and AK's ever since. I loaded up my old faithfull rounds and sighted in a V-Match last week. We are going to start hunting hogs again next week so I'll see how they do, but if I go into the brush looking for one it won't be with a 223.

 

[Locknload]

I read only the first two posts and decided to answer their questions, without reading the thread as I have the answer for the main questions that started the thread.

I live in NW Florida where we have some very large wild boar (600 pounds)and a very serious problem with deer (it is not uncommon to see 20+ does in a group). The hogs are extrodinarily destructive, actually causing some farms to shut down operations due to repetitive damage. The deer are almost as bad when it comes to young crop plants in that a heard of deer will eat the plants off to the ground in a large area overnight.

I own a farm near the AL border. I carry an accurized Mini-14 on my tractor in a Buggies Unlimited Sporting Clays floor mount, mounted on the right fender. I shoot everything with the Mini and nothing takes two shots.

I have two friends that have a predation permit for 90 deer over in Escambia County on three peanut fields. They fill the permit every year and both use fast twist 223 Remington 700s and the 80gr Sierra MK. They regularly shoot to 840 yards never shoot more than one shot and get end to end full penetration at that distance.

My next door neighbor has hunted deer with a Mini for 10 years now. He kills about 8-9 deer every year, some to 200 yards. He has a shooting house. He never has shot any deer more than once.

I was the match director at a Rod & Gun Club on a military base for 25 years. We had a high power rifle team, they all shot ARs with fast twist barrels and when they started, all the 30 cal boys laughed at them right up to the end of the first match, when the 5 man team took 1st-5th in top scores with the 80gr Sierras at 600 to 1,000 yards.

Most folks who think the 223 is a varmit round think so out of ignorance, they simply do not know the capability of the 223 with a heavy match bullet, nor do they understand that the military class HP shooters have figured out how to get a 75gr bullet into a magazine and the combination gets an arrow like projectile moving that is quite devistating at long range. They use VN powder.

Do not let the little case fool you. The 223 is very deadly on hogs or deer and the Sierra Mk bullets are amazing game killers. The folks at Sierra know this and are amazed themselves, but will not advertise their paper punching bullets as game bullets and that comes right from Sierra itself. I called and had a long discussion with the tec guys at Sierra about this very subject.
Ed

 

[eaglesnester]

I have to agree that the .223 will kill animals larger than someone would expect. I have a 22/250 that craters steel plate to 3/8 inch deep at 200 meters. I have no doubt that the bullet would be deadly to any critter of reasonable size and weight that is unlucky to to be hit by it. A regular 22 LR rimfire is more deadly than many people give it credit for. With proper bullet placement a rimfire LR will kill a grizzley bear. In fact one did here in B.C. Canada in 1983, it were a worlds record, I do believe.

Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

 

[Kiwi Nate]

I have killed hogs with a .22LR. Does that mean it is a hog gun? Of course not.

I am a hog guide, we have no seasons here in New Zealand so its an all year round thing. In other words, myself or my clients are constantly shooting hogs, year in, year out. The breed is the typical European wild Boar / Sus Scrofa. As I type this on my laptop, my pet boar is sitting at my side, 150lb of muscle but lives for cuddles.

I banned the small calibers on our block a few years back due to its lack of penetration on mature boar. Minimum caliber is now 6.5. That said, even the mild 6.5's through to 30 cal can have problems so the best I have been able to do, for the sake of the animals, is ban the smallest cartridges.

Rather than attacking the use of the .223, I would like to instead give examples of where two of the larger calibers have failed to anchor pigs. Hopefully this will help broaden the picture.

The 6.5x55 is popular in NZ. With the 6.5x55 loaded with 140 grain bullets at 2750fps, I have had 3 failures over three seasons. One was a neck shot at 240 yards, dead center of the neck, full expansion and the spine was grazed which momentarily dropped the hog. The hog then got up and escaped through a cliff/bluff system that would have many flat landers vomiting from vertigo. I could only go so far before I lost the blood trail at a waterfall against a cliff. The animal must have died- eventually.

Center chest shot with a conventional soft point in the 6.5 at 180 yards, bullet failed to pass through the shield. Typical shield thickness on our boars is around 1 to 1.5" of cartilage.

Just behind the shoulder / rear lung shot, swede, SST bullet, 200 yards, good blood trail, trail diminished after 50 yards when the pig broke off into a side gully of heavy bush- you would call it rain forest or jungle in the states. Pig never recovered

Two .308 failures in 3 years.

.308 Win, 155gr Match bullet, 50 yards, head shot on boar, bullet blew up on its temple, pig did not even drop, just lopoked stunned for a moment then broke off into a cliff system.

.308 150 grain Accubond. Bounced off skull from frontal head shot. I have heard stories of this for years, stories from way back in the twenties when guys were using heavy 174 grain FMJ .303 ammo. The pig was actually knocked out cold so I managed to stick it quick. An autopsy of the frontal skin/skull showed how and where the bullet tracked.

Ok, so the above are just a few examples. When I had clients using .223's and .243's, things were really bad, neck shots, head shots, shot placement was irrelevant. You have to remember, if it was one person doing all the shooting and they had taken say 300 animals and had three hiccups- no biggie. But the above are relative to one client, the one shot they have been waiting for since their last holiday break. If the client goes home empty handed it is a real shame however that is less of a worry than going back to the hut and the client is really down about a wounded pig.

I go to a great deal of effort to help my clients choose a suitable load for hogs for both their sake and the sake of the animal and as I have pointed out above, even the mid powered cartridges can run into trouble, regardless of bullet design and shot placement- especially if the pigs have been wallowing in clay.

One other thing, and this is a horrible thing to mention but I am going to say it. Sometimes when a person takes a 250 yard plus shot on a pig with a small caliber (as can happen at long range with a larger caliber), the shooter will call the shot as a miss when infact it was a hit. Its something you only get to see when you are constantly spotting for others. A lot of animals run off with bullets in them, called as misses when infact the result is a slow kill. Pigs can really put up a fight for their life and will sometimes show no reaction- even to the point of putting all of their weight on a severely wounded quarter. like I say, its not a nice subject but people need to know this sort of thing.

Hope that wasn't inflammatory- maybe shed some light from a different perspective.

 

[J E Custom]

I have killed hogs with a .22LR. Does that mean it is a hog gun? Of course not.

I am a hog guide, we have no seasons here in New Zealand so its an all year round thing. In other words, myself or my clients are constantly shooting hogs, year in, year out. The breed is the typical European wild Boar / Sus Scrofa. As I type this on my laptop, my pet boar is sitting at my side, 150lb of muscle but lives for cuddles.

I banned the small calibers on our block a few years back due to its lack of penetration on mature boar. Minimum caliber is now 6.5. That said, even the mild 6.5's through to 30 cal can have problems so the best I have been able to do, for the sake of the animals, is ban the smallest cartridges.

Rather than attacking the use of the .223, I would like to instead give examples of where two of the larger calibers have failed to anchor pigs. Hopefully this will help broaden the picture.

The 6.5x55 is popular in NZ. With the 6.5x55 loaded with 140 grain bullets at 2750fps, I have had 3 failures over three seasons. One was a neck shot at 240 yards, dead center of the neck, full expansion and the spine was grazed which momentarily dropped the hog. The hog then got up and escaped through a cliff/bluff system that would have many flat landers vomiting from vertigo. I could only go so far before I lost the blood trail at a waterfall against a cliff. The animal must have died- eventually.

Center chest shot with a conventional soft point in the 6.5 at 180 yards, bullet failed to pass through the shield. Typical shield thickness on our boars is around 1 to 1.5" of cartilage.

Just behind the shoulder / rear lung shot, swede, SST bullet, 200 yards, good blood trail, trail diminished after 50 yards when the pig broke off into a side gully of heavy bush- you would call it rain forest or jungle in the states. Pig never recovered

Two .308 failures in 3 years.

.308 Win, 155gr Match bullet, 50 yards, head shot on boar, bullet blew up on its temple, pig did not even drop, just lopoked stunned for a moment then broke off into a cliff system.

.308 150 grain Accubond. Bounced off skull from frontal head shot. I have heard stories of this for years, stories from way back in the twenties when guys were using heavy 174 grain FMJ .303 ammo. The pig was actually knocked out cold so I managed to stick it quick. An autopsy of the frontal skin/skull showed how and where the bullet tracked.

Ok, so the above are just a few examples. When I had clients using .223's and .243's, things were really bad, neck shots, head shots, shot placement was irrelevant. You have to remember, if it was one person doing all the shooting and they had taken say 300 animals and had three hiccups- no biggie. But the above are relative to one client, the one shot they have been waiting for since their last holiday break. If the client goes home empty handed it is a real shame however that is less of a worry than going back to the hut and the client is really down about a wounded pig.

I go to a great deal of effort to help my clients choose a suitable load for hogs for both their sake and the sake of the animal and as I have pointed out above, even the mid powered cartridges can run into trouble, regardless of bullet design and shot placement- especially if the pigs have been wallowing in clay.

One other thing, and this is a horrible thing to mention but I am going to say it. Sometimes when a person takes a 250 yard plus shot on a pig with a small caliber (as can happen at long range with a larger caliber), the shooter will call the shot as a miss when infact it was a hit. Its something you only get to see when you are constantly spotting for others. A lot of animals run off with bullets in them, called as misses when infact the result is a slow kill. Pigs can really put up a fight for their life and will sometimes show no reaction- even to the point of putting all of their weight on a severely wounded quarter. like I say, its not a nice subject but people need to know this sort of thing.

Hope that wasn't inflammatory- maybe shed some light from a different perspective.

+1

Well said and well explained.

J E CUSTOM

 

[brentdrake]

I use a 243. But the most popular and widest used gun in Kentucky is the 223.

 

[joe0121]

I was just using 5.56 x 45 55 gr FMJ. I suppose "big hole" is a judgement call, but when me, the guide and the butcher were examining the hog as the butcher skinned it, we all thought it was a big hole.

The 5.56 is a very unstable round as a great deal of its mass is aft. When it hits something like flesh the rear of the bullet tumbles forward causing a very large wound channel. This is most true past 100 yards and very pronounced between 200-300 yards.

Closer than 100 yards the affect is more like shoving a hot pencil through something. I have shot and have seen shot many Insurgents in Iraq at distance closer than 100 yards several time and they continue to fight on only to die hour/days later nor not at all.

So yes the 5.56 is a meat axe but only in certain conditions. Now in the military you can carry a lot of 5.56 and being limited by ball ammo it isnt THAT bad of a choice given the NATO standardization BS (6.8 Grendel would be better as well as that weird CZ 5.7mm).

But with the availability of civilian hunting ammo I think there are a host of other better options. Come to think of it for smallish to medium thick skinned game in a wooded setting 6.8 grendal sound like more the ticket.

As with anything skill and shot placement trump caliber selection anytime. Also a short barrel rifle to take some velocity of the 5.56/.223 as well as twist rate selection could easily move the "meat axe" affect in closer.

Yes we have all seen the videos of guys shooting ballistics gel at close range and the round tumbles. But I have also seen a bad guy take three shots to the chest at 15 yards and keep running and firing at the other marines in the convoy.

 

[joe0121]

I dont have 50+ but I have 40 years of being primarily a hog hunter and have hunted with everything from dogs and duct tape ( my favorite way) to 300 win mag. I have killed well over 100 or 2 a year average in that time with a 223 and been very satisfied with it. Yes I would bear hunt with a 223, hell I would elephant hunt with one as long as someone was with me with a larger rifle in case we were charged before i got a shot!! Nothin that breathes air can take a well placed bullet over 3000 fps. I wont argue the point, I dont have to guess at it I have done it sucessfully for years.

Not to take away from you post but I have seen several human being take multiple well aimed shots from a 5.56 and live.