And do you really want to kill your enemy in battle? Think about a WWII style battle for moment. If I kill a guy, end of story. But if I shoot a soldier and he's laying there in the field, then a handful of guys are now tied up retrieving him rather than shooting at my guys. Not only that, vehicles, aircraft & boats will be tied up transporting him to a hospital where all kinds of resources and personnel will be tied up working on the fellow. Those are resources that could otherwise be put to work on the battlefield. I'm just thinking out loud, but perhaps a wounded enemy is worth more than a dead one.
What can't .223 kill?
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AussieHunter
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Yes I agree, its all about bullet placement, which in combat is not always possible. I hunt in Australia with a Custom Sako L461 .223Rem with a old German PECAR Fixed power 8X43mm with a fine cross hair. I hand load Winchester 64Gr Power Point (Lite skinned Game Bullet) @ a Nominal Velocity of 3175 FPS to 3200 FPS depending on which Primer I use at the time? My Game that I hunt are Feral Goats, Foxes and Feral Cats "Of the household kind" that are wild in their thousands in my country from the deserts to the tropics" my 223Rem does it all , it has also hunted Hogs. I Have the 64Grain load as well as the 62Gr Mil spec SS109 FMJ Load Zeroed for just past 250M point of aim ( about 275Yards or there abouts) my favourite shot on goats is the side on shoulder shot and with this zero up close and personal its a case of hold it were you want it to go and @100m I put 3/4 of the goats shoulder above the cross hair and it drills a nice dead centre hole in the shoulder but all of this comes into its own further out given that I have a diner plate sized killing zone with this shot 200m and 250m shots are simply a centre hold on the shoulder and pull the trigger which results in a mild muzzle report mild recoil and a VERY Satisfying Whack as the bullet breaks both shoulders of even the biggest of Goats @ 250m leaving a .50Cal Exit whole on the far side leaving me with my hearing in tact and a very dead Goat EVERY TIME, At 300m I put the cross hair on their spine an have all of the shoulder to drop the bullet into this system works out very well for me but the goats don't like it one little bit. The goal here is to hit bone on the way in, It then takes out the lungs and heart and the shoulder bone on the far side on the way out, It makes for a VERY EASY OFF HAND "ONE" Shot Kill. ** NOTE**now while the Winchester 64Gr P-Point Pill is Not the best grouping pill from my Rifle ( 23" Fluted 1-7 Twist ) what it lacks in its paper punching prowess it more than makes up by being by far the Best Constructed bullet for the job at hand with a 100% kill rate with the fore mentioned shot placement, the 60Gr Hornady HP will NOT exit a average female nanny goat @130m with the same powder charge and 95% of hits are effective 1 shot kills but the Hornady HP bullet comes completely apart under the far shoulder blade, Now the FMJ 62Gr MIL:SPEC Bullet is some thing different and this story go's some way to answering the original thread question as to why it is so that the 223Rem kills every thing but soldiers are unhappy with it? I was given some of these years ago, Live Australia Issue 1991/2 year head stamp these have have hardened steel penetrator in the nose and a lead core in the rear both core meet at the cannelure it is a unstable bullet that is made to fly true by over stabilizing it in a very tight twist if 1-7 Which I have and my rifle was chambered for it "SS109" Deliberately as I was a soldier at the time. I one used 14 of these to shoot a group of 10 young Male goats in a Stalk some of the shooting was done up close and quick just like a combat engagement and the last of that group were at range with a rest to lean on while puffing like mad( the heart rate was sky high) the longer range shots were all good 1 shot each including a full length body shot that went in the left buttock and out the front of the rite hand shoulder at about 150m distant, but the up close shots placed very quickly on multiple targets left 3 wounded goats, Now I had a Delmor I had all 10 goats down( Hunting on foot on my own) having missed two shots in the heat of battle with the up close goats, I had two rounds left and 3 wounded to dispatch( remember we are talking here 62Gr FMJ mil Issue ammo) these three were scattered around a little so back tracking a bit I located the first an dispatched him found the second one was were Id left him and I was in luck he was in the last throws of expiring from a through and through chest shot leaving me with one goat and one round, being pumped at this time and over confident I fired my last round at a range of about 30m with a angled shot from rite rear to front left of the chest, this goat having a quite nasty bullet wound already but still being quite active and bleeding quite a lot upon being struck with my last round simply got up and ran away flat out leaving me stunned, so I followed him up and every time I got near to him he would run again and again. Frustrated I left my rifle behind and followed him further and noticed that this tough little goat was finely slowing some so as I go closer I rushed him and had to tackle him to the Ground and dispatched him with a Knife, the last round had passed clean through hitting nothing vital nor any bone, Now goats are about the same as human in chest density and while I have a good kill rate on goats with FMJ's in other engagements, Even I have had failures in this case shot twice at close range and not fully down but on the run for a while. The conclusion from all of this is this, 1.BULLET PLACEMENT IS ALL IMPORTANT, 2.TRY TO HIT BONE ON THE WAY IN. 3. ALWAYS GO PREPARED THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A QUICK WALK WHEN THE HUNTING STARTS, 4. IF YOU THINK THAT 1 HAND FULL OF BULLETS IS ENOUGH? THEN TAKE 2 HAND FULLS. 5. YOUR QUIRIE MAY HAVE A STRONGER WILL TO LIVE THAN YOU THINK? AND LASTLY GO WELL EQUIPED AND KEEP SHOOTING TILL YOUR QUIRIE STOPS BREATHING PARTICULARLY IF IT CARRIES A AK47 THIS LAST POINT IS TO OUR MILITARY BROTHERS IN ARMSgun)
AussieHunter
Member
Very True Poorly placed hits even with a Magnum are still only likely to wound several cases in point here in Australia that I can relate to you, Many years ago when the 7mm-80 Remington was still being talked about out here but no one had seen one yet a friend of mine a marksman of some renown who's parents run a Gun Shop up in the Northern Territory of Australia ( Darwin N.T.) Its a tropical and wild place in which you can hunt Asiatic Water Buffalo for which they run hunting trips for southern Customers and others, the Son David had a custom 7mm-08 made up on a Remington Mohawk action with a 24" Shilon Match grade S/Steel barrel 1 step heavier than a sporter weight This was to become His Guide Gun loaded with 168Gr Sierra Match King pills, the Rifle was topped of with a Kahles scope @ about 6 Power from memory zeroed to print point of aim at 200m, Customers were given a Parker Hale 375 H&H Magnum rifle (minimum Calibre for the big 5 in Africa) and a box of Winchester 270Gr sliver tipped soft points Now this load works well on big fat water Buffs but still you have to place the shot, All to often the hunter being guided and not having fired this sort of heavy calibre much or at all would on taking aim on a Buff from 50 to 100m distant (Stalking on foot) take aim at the beast close both eyes and pull the trigger and flinch in advance of the forth coming recoil more often than not leaving a wounded Buff to trot off away from the threatening hunter to which David would wait until the beast was at around 200m away and raise his nice little compact mild shooting rifle and one shot clean kill the Buff with a well placed bullet to the back of the head with a brain shot the Buff would fall in its tracks to the amazement of the customer being guided with them asking HOW DO YOU DO THAT?? and as Dave would say Bullet Placement Mate it works every time. Second example also in the N.T. Of Australia a mate of mine was shooting feral Donkeys with a 375H&H Magnum and had some 300Gr FMJ Round nose bullets with him, He figured he could shoot donkeys in the head with them and that would work out just OK?? How ever after shooting a donkey side on in the head it just stood there with a little trickle of red running down from both sides of its head and just would not die, A Friend of ours makes a heavy jacketed 200Gr HP for the 375H&H @3120FPS the follow up head shot with this bullet all but vapourised the Donkeys head being a far more humane choice of bullet Just not a pretty one, Moral to Hunting is, Rite Bullet in the Rite place at all time equals good reliable hunting Cheers AussieHunter
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No offence to anyone But the 223 is not the best round. Yes it will kill any thing on the planet but I was not impressed 19 yrs ago. In concept it does take 2 people to carry a wounded man off the field of battle. In reality the people we are fighting now (and then) could care less for their bleeding bud they just want to KILL YOU. Short range tactical sniping yes, long range NO. I carried a M-14 and a .45 by choice. Use the 223 for what ever you like but I never will again. I'm reminded of it's lack of power every day by my reflection and the scar on my left shoulder given to me by a wounded enemy with a knife.
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
AussieHunter
Member
In response to 7 Loader, I hear ya brother in regards to wounded enemy and the .223Rem (5.56 Nato) but is there really a perfect military Round? Sure 7.62x51 Nato I would agree that in the combat areas the we are in at the moment where we need long range hitting powder at the small unit/squad level Its a much better round for desert warfare where rangers are long ( beyond 600 +) and also the house clearing issue of mud and cinder block penetration is a issue, Every round has its issues and you can be sure that what ever round you are issued today for this battle won't be the correct round for the next war, Hey we could go back to the 45-70Gov and blow every son of a bitch completely of his feet from the other side of a cinder block and yet you could still get over run and stabbed by the enemy due to the fact that you just can't carry enough of those big heavy rounds around with you all day? 7.62x51 while its just a bit to much gun for humans strictly speaking I think is probably the best option at this point in time as it can still be made available at this time (and is) it has the reach and hitting power needed for open desert warfare as apposed to close quarter jungle warfare, it was said some years ago that we (the west) would never fight another desert war?? so much so that the Britt's sold all their desert cams to Iraq and then when the went the gulf war the poms were wearing woodlands cams and their enemy were wearing British Desert cams ?? just how smart are the people that do our thinking for us defence wise??? Of all the rounds that Iv seen put up as the ultimate military cartridge I still think that the .280-British Nato was probably it(7mm NATO) the Brits actually adopted it but the USA refused to adopt any thing that was foreign and NOT .30-Cal despite how good the 280-Nato was in the British EM-2 weapon, ( see it on Utube and listing on www.ammoguide.com ) That was not the best choice that US has ever made, The .280 Nato would have worked out OK in Vietnam and should do quite OK in todays environment as well? had the US adopted the British idea back then things today may be very different and to that end Iv considered building a lite weight sporting rifle in the 280British just so that I can test it for myself ballistically ? years ago a friend of mine built a 7mm-08 on a Remington sort action just before or about the time that Remington got around releasing it as a factory standard case it was a fine shooter but on heavier game that we hunted I felt that it was just a little underpowered Thus the .280Nato would be more so, How ever we are talking enemy combatants and FMJ versus Hunting and soft point ammo and the two applications are streets apart, which is mostly the case with my former comments with the 5.56Nato/ .223Rem with the rite twist and pill it is a great little hunter that can preform out of its league but all rounds have their limits. I guess that's why there are so many different rounds out there. Iv also noted in a report that I read the preferred weapons of all of what has been tried and tested over there in the Ghan and Iraq at this time are all WW2 era weapons and that would make sense as it is desert warfare again and all of the older systems have been tried and proven and any bugs were worked out and sorted a long time ago, Aain't it strange how what was once old is new again and its hard to improve on perfection but there is always some NEW Kid on the block that thinks that he can? In closing its only fair to say the senior Russian officials would also prefer to return to the tried and proven 7.62X39mm AK-47 round over the smaller dia: AK-74 and I guess its for the same reason that the 5.56Nato is disliked at this time Militarily speaking. gun)
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ROBSTER
Well-Known Member
The bigger the betteri don`t want any of my targets walking away.
Robster
Robster
AussieHunter
Member
Well ROBSTER, its like this Goats are lite game no tougher than people chest wise and I took my .308Win out one time on a goat hunt and had more wounded goat than I had ever had? its a matter of trust my .223 Custom Sako L461 That I trust its perfect For this game and the load is Taylor made me them there goats its rear for me to have a wounded goat with my pet loads in my pet gun While I may take 6 to 10 runs on a bush camping trip over 5 days with the best intention of using some thing different come goat hunting time 9 times out of 10 the rest get left at camp and the 223 Sako go's with me, Like I said its all about trust I know that little gun will do every thing that I ask of it out to 300m and at times its been pushed out to some what more than that? It took me nearly ten years to get around to hunting goats with my 358Win custom Tikka M-55 with my home swaged Jacketed bullet and my own design of built in muzzle brake, I kept promising my self that I would do that, it finally happened after ten years and only because I made my self leave the Sako 223 at home and not take it at all, my fellow hunter thought that I must have not been well as for me to do that just was not heard of?? Cheers to all 
Clark
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- 772
If the #1 elk cartridge is 30-06 180 gr, then a .223 is overkill for the biggest mule buck.
That flies in the face of conventional wisdom, because what is really going on is we carry all the rifle with can.
A boy's rifle weighs less than 5 pounds.
A man's rifle weighs less than 10 pounds.
It is just no fun to carry any more than that.
So we shoot mule deer with a 270, because we can make an accurate 270 with less than 10 pounds and a man can carry it.
The reason we don't normally hunt big deer with a .223 is that we can carry something heavier.
That flies in the face of conventional wisdom, because what is really going on is we carry all the rifle with can.
A boy's rifle weighs less than 5 pounds.
A man's rifle weighs less than 10 pounds.
It is just no fun to carry any more than that.
So we shoot mule deer with a 270, because we can make an accurate 270 with less than 10 pounds and a man can carry it.
The reason we don't normally hunt big deer with a .223 is that we can carry something heavier.
ForneyRider
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My dad has regularly taken white tail, feral hog and coyote with 50gr VMax from a .22-250. We have since set him up with 130gr Accubond from a 270 WSM.
I shot a button buck with 50gr Federal bulk from AR at 100 yards. He dropped dead. He didn't run off like several 7mm Mag gut shot animals from others I hunt with.
It's possible, with the right shot, to take animals with .223. But why not give yourself some insurance with a bigger bullet with more retained velocity down range?
I shot a button buck with 50gr Federal bulk from AR at 100 yards. He dropped dead. He didn't run off like several 7mm Mag gut shot animals from others I hunt with.
It's possible, with the right shot, to take animals with .223. But why not give yourself some insurance with a bigger bullet with more retained velocity down range?
goose316
Well-Known Member
I know shot placement is key and ballistic charts are gospel.....but bullets in flesh speaks for itself. I have killed numerous whitetails with a 223 shooting 52gr matchkings. I have never had one take a step after being shot square in the neck...not head not upper neck but square in the neck. I would not pass a shot at elk or moose with this set up. Call me crazy, but I have used this out to 400 yds on deer and would not hesitate a further shot. Call it unethical but I know my equipment and shoot it every week and I know for a fact, bullets into blood, what it will do.
I know the matchkings and bergers are target bullets but some know what I am talking about.
I know the matchkings and bergers are target bullets but some know what I am talking about.
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I have killed 209 pigs this year so far with a single shot 223 with 55gr hornadysxsp and 27.5 gr varget all one shot kills from 35 to 379 pounds from 15 to 186 yards. This same load will pass completly through 1/4 inch steel plate (if the plate is fixed solid) at 100 yards and rip a 100 pound pigs head apart. I hunt with a 223 alot and if you hunt smart,take good shots with proper placement I dont thing God designed an animal that would survive a head or neck shot from one.
goose316
Well-Known Member
A bullet into flesh educated man speaks.....after my own heart. Where are you located sir?
