VLD bullets vs Elk shoulder bone

[Hand Skills]

Agreed, even on level ground +3" up and +2" left is a better (and safer) location.

-more margin for error
-The elbow has a tendency to move
-blood pressure drops faster if the top of the heart is cut, vs the bottom

 

[Barrelnut]

-blood pressure drops faster if the top of the heart is cut, vs the bottom

I will go with this. I've had a couple heart shots that tend to support it.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

NBT's running over 2850fps are flying bombs. Never saw one exit the rib cage even on a decent sized WT Buck.

My biggest buck was killed with a 140 nosler bt shot out of my 7mm rem mag at 3200 fps. Shot him at 80 yards right through the boiler room. Insides mush and a quarter sized exit. He dressed 218lbs.

 

[Pdvdh]

I haven't shot an elk yet but after I think I'm going to go double lung from now on on all game. My 45-70 for walking in the woods and a 178gr-210gr in my 06 until I decide I need something bigger. I love eating the heart, and I don't want to ruin the shoulder. This is after decades of talking to people who have been there, done that. And hearing both sides of the argument.

Exactly RIGHT!

 

[WildRose]

Yes, if you are shooting uphill or at close range. If the bullet is on it's way down it's too risky.

??? Adjust your point of aim to compensate for the angle just like you do on any other shot.

 

[WildRose]

My biggest buck was killed with a 140 nosler bt shot out of my 7mm rem mag at 3200 fps. Shot him at 80 yards right through the boiler room. Insides mush and a quarter sized exit. He dressed 218lbs.

At that range I don't doubt it.

 

[257Tony]

??? Adjust your point of aim to compensate for the angle just like you do on any other shot.

Then you are not shooting the elbow, which is the point I was trying to make in the first place.

 

[WildRose]

Agreed, even on level ground +3" up and +2" left is a better (and safer) location.

-more margin for error
-The elbow has a tendency to move
-blood pressure drops faster if the top of the heart is cut, vs the bottom

It doesn't move much on an animal that's standing still.

Personally I prefer a frontal shot out to about 400yds. If they're straight on my aimpoint is the tip of the sternum, slightly quartering I'll use the crease of the neck/shoulder junction looking to spine them.

A little low and you wreck at least one lung and run the bullet the length of the vitals. Nothing runs far with all their pluming wrecked.

 

[WildRose]

Then you are not shooting the elbow, which is the point I was trying to make in the first place.

The discussion was about a straight on broadside shot, you're throwing variable in that he wasn't considering.

 

[xsn10s]

Which is why my bear defense bullets are not VLDs, or relatives of VLDs.

My understanding is that bears can be quite unfriendly. Which is why I stoked my 45-70 with 350gr Hornady's loaded hot in my Marlin. And carried federal Castcores 300gr in my Model 29 44 mag. Alaska is a wonderful place. You are in the environment as you were intended to be, not knowing if you are predator or prey.

 

[xsn10s]

My biggest buck was killed with a 140 nosler bt shot out of my 7mm rem mag at 3200 fps. Shot him at 80 yards right through the boiler room. Insides mush and a quarter sized exit. He dressed 218lbs.

Amazing how those solid bases on the Ballistic Tips will exit a buck. When the Ultra Mags came about all the Ballistic Tips got redesigned abit to handle the new velocities. And even if they didn't anyone who cross sectioned a "Solid Base" or Ballistic Tip would see the solid base. They generally exit bucks.

 

[ATH]

We're all talking in anecdotes, and like others I operate based off of the ones I have observed.

It's not that VLDs always blow up; for me, it's that they are unpredictable. I have seen them pencil, I have seen them blow up shallow, I have seen them tumble, and I have seen them perform well. I don't like a bullet where when I pull the trigger I have to wonder how it will perform.

Shooting heavier game I'm all for a good bonded bullet (accubond) or a Partition if BC isn't a concern. I've had good luck with the ELD-M as long as the range is long enough to slow them down.

I don't shoot the Barnes as I have seen several examples of them holding together TOO well. Petals open wide and you have a huge surface area bullet which splashes and deflects. I once shot a yearling meat whitetail in the shoulder with a Barnes, the bullet splashed on the shoulder blade and deflected. I was sick what the animal went through before I could put it down. No more coppers for me after that one.

 

[WildRose]

We're all talking in anecdotes, and like others I operate based off of the ones I have observed.

It's not that VLDs always blow up; for me, it's that they are unpredictable. I have seen them pencil, I have seen them blow up shallow, I have seen them tumble, and I have seen them perform well. I don't like a bullet where when I pull the trigger I have to wonder how it will perform.

Shooting heavier game I'm all for a good bonded bullet (accubond) or a Partition if BC isn't a concern. I've had good luck with the ELD-M as long as the range is long enough to slow them down.

I don't shoot the Barnes as I have seen several examples of them holding together TOO well. Petals open wide and you have a huge surface area bullet which splashes and deflects. I once shot a yearling meat whitetail in the shoulder with a Barnes, the bullet splashed on the shoulder blade and deflected. I was sick what the animal went through before I could put it down. No more coppers for me after that one.

There are much bette copper bullets out there than the TSX or TTSX.

Give the Peregrines or Hammers a ride and you likely won't go back to lead.

The Peregrine VLR 3,4 and 5 have been flawless for me on several hundred critters so far mostly big hogs and deer but also African Plains Game which of course is what they were originally designed for.

They will always open and perform consistently through a range of velocities I've shot them and I've shot them in everything from the 260 Rem to 375 Ruger with 7mm STW, 300's both Wm's and Rum's.

Hammers have a very dedicated following as well.

 

[Hand Skills]

It doesn't move much on an animal that's standing still.

Personally I prefer a frontal shot out to about 400yds. If there straight on my aimpoint is the tip of the sternum, slightly quartering I'll use the crease of the neck/shoulder junction looking to spine them.

A little low and you wreck at least one lung and run the bullet the length of the vitals. Nothing runs far with all their pluming wrecked.

If animals stood still all the time, would we still call it hunting? Come on, you should be the one telling me stories of 'things that happen during time of flight'!

I realize the YouTube example you provided wasn't your own. Anatomically, it's actually one of the more accurate representations I've seen, which is notable. Still, the elbow is not a safe target (Unless, say you're zero'd at 300 and the elk is at 150)

The OP mentioned a couple of examples of elk appearing bullet proof when hit low, good PSA! Those who do well aiming for leg bones are shooting big bores at close ranges, and they are certainly not using VLD's.

It's always interesting discussing shot placement with someone as experienced yourself. Rarely are two presentations ever the same. Angle, aspect, distance, wind... the illusive 'bang-flop'... I too have found frontal shots seem to provide 'instant results' more often than 'side address'. There seems to be a 'shut down' switch above the heart and below the spine - I don't always find it, but it's real satisfying when I do!

Bull Elk are hairy beasts. Their skeleton is not well defined, even to someone who has deconstructed a few.

As much as we enjoy debating the finer points of placement, in the spirit of general education, I'm sure we can agree the fundamentals are pretty simple. Keep impact in within (vertically) the middle third of the torso, slightly fore or aft of the shoulder (depending on presentation), and let the work begin!