Berger VLD performance on bone question...

[RockyMtnMT]

Barnes tests bumpkis IMO, they load some rounds at different velocity and shoot it into a large water tank then drop the bullets out the bottom and acting like that is relevant to hunting, it makes pretty bullet pictures but shooting into a water tank inches away from our muzzle has nothing to do with hunting. They are not correct on their twist rates, they do it just like many other manufactures. The two best bullet companies about twist rates are Hammer bullets and Berger, the guys at Hammer live in reality and shoot their own bullet and send bullets out and get results from real shooting and they know their twist rates not only from modeling but from shooting and paying attention to wound channels and bullet tracking in game.

You are correct. You have a pretty good idea, but most do not, of how consumed we are with trying to make sure that we have this right. We have a few thousand pounds of copper on hand that we will not use for our bullets due to terminal performance. In the quest for better, when we found it, we could not in good conscience continue making bullets with the old copper knowing that we came up with a better alloy. The old stuff works, just not as well.

Anyone need a few thousand pounds of copper rod? Will sell at current market rate.

Steve

 

[Pdvdh]

bigngreen,

What is your experience with Nosler Partitions?

Will share one specific NP experience at long range from the early 1980s. When a wet thumb and pre-hunt paced off yardage to distant targets ruled the day. Back then the common term was Kentucky windage or yardage.
A 250gr round nose NP, fired from .338 Win Mag. Distance tape measured at ~762yds, after the fact. I zeroed my moose rifle @ around 300yds in those days. Held about 7-10 feet high with a 2.5-8x36mm Leopold, best as I recollect. Dead centered the ribs on a completely broadside shot. Bullet stopped under the offside hide. Picture perfect expansion and relatively high weight retention - no doubt due to the slow impact velocity. Bullet was probably only going ~1,300 fps at impact. Bull jumped at the hit and ran about 35yds. Lay down and never regained feet. Still have that bullet somewhere or another, and I still have some 338WM reloaded with that bullet. Their Partitions look different today, compared to the early 80s. Different manufacturing process.
Not many moose killed at that distance with round nose Partitions. I don't think Nosler even made the pointed soft point partitions at the time. Later they made both 210 and 250gr PSP partitions.
Killed one other bull moose with the 250 NP Round nose at 70yds in 1976. Frontal shot where the neck joins the chest. Again 338 WM. Dumped the bull in his tracks, which is unusual with a body shot on a large bull.
Besides those, shot another ~3 bull moose with the 210 NP PSPs.
Also killed 1 caribou with the 250 NP RN and maybe 10 deer with the 210 NP PSP.
Never had a terminal performance disappointment with any NP, RN or PSP, from my 338 WM. Always excellent terminal performance with the NP.
But I now load some of the original 225gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws or 275gr Swift A-Frames for bear defense, camp defense, and for game animals at less than ~ 300yds, for my 338s.

 

[jlreff]

Why do you think Barnes just changed their recommended twist rate for the 7mm 168 l r x. It wouldn't shoot in the 1-9 twist factory guns come in. That's why they test them and the selection is limited. Most out their are shooting a factory rifle and that really effects there bullet selection. Especially with this new long range bullets. Look at Berger web site they recommend a 1-9 twist for their 230 30cal hybrid. Now what factory rifle do you now in that twist rate. I don't.

 

[jlreff]

Call ty at Barnes and talk to him. They have a 300 yard test tunnel if I remember correctly. I've tested their bullets myself and they've sent them out to be tested. Why do you think they don't make a 25cal l r x. Even Berger had to change their twist rate recommendations for some of their bullets. As to quality of copper like at their old bullets compared to their new ones. They have to market to the average reloaders just like everyone else. Just like all other companies. Dueto factory twist rate constraints. Look at all the companies that came out with copper bullets. That says enough. I've shot a lot of different bullets over the years and found what works and stuck with it. I've either nearly lost game or lost a lot of meat due to bullet failure.

 

[bigngreen]

Huge difference in flight stability and terminal stability!!! Berger's changes are based on elr flight stability effecting BC, well beyond where a Barnes will be skidding dirt!

 

[WildRose]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm thinking for the first two or three decades of the existence of Partitions very few gave long range, or even 5-600 yards, at thought for hunting. I used to think 300 yards was long range.

That's funny Rich, I was thinking the same thing this afternoon watching the deer play at about a half mile.

Thirty years ago I couldn't even envision shooting a .300wm at them or over 300 yards and had never seen a scope with more than 12x magnification.

Today I was thinking that if a nice buck walked out to sniff the girls it would be a chip shot with the .300 Rum and the 4-24x52 and dead calm wind.

I thought the 7mm RM was the ultimate monster killer and the 3.5-10x40 was more scope than a man would ever need.

Times have sure changed... .

 

[WildRose]

That's what I'm trying to get at. Everybody wants a high b c bullet but factory rifles want stabalise them. That's the one thing Barnes does the test to see if the bullet will stabilize in a standard factory twist. Some others don't and people try to shoot them and they don't work well. The factory's need to start looking at new twist rates instead of using the old formulas. It just doesnt work with any of this new long range bullets out there.

Unless you're buying a purpose built LR Rig the factory is building them for average shooters, average hunters, and average ranges and the bullets that average hunters and shooters are shooting.

You can't expect any of the big guys turning out tens or hundreds of thousands of rifles a year for the guys shopping at Academy or WalMart to adjust their whole line to suit the less that 1% of hunters in the category we fall in.

You can't make a Toyota Landcruiser into a Ferrari nor a Ferrari into a Landcruiser and if you try to, you're bound for disappointment.

Even five years ago the super heavy for caliber, super high BC bullets many are shooting today didn't exist and we couldn't see them on the horizon.

Until you're ready to rebarrel you just have to limit your expectations and bullets to those that will work in your factory rifle.

I've seen a whole lot of folks here frustrate themselves to no end wasting a tremendous amount of time and money trying to work up accurate loads with bullets that simply cannot be stabilized in the quest for the ultimate high BC hunting bullet.

We can't change the physics and we just have to accept it.

 

[jlreff]

That's exactly right. That's what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting it so well.

 

[couesaddict]

Got these two bucks with .277 cal 170 bergers leaving at 3080fps. My wife's hit a rib on the way in and another heading through the other side at 120 yards. 270 hole in and about 1" in the hide on the exit. Lungs were jello. Mine went in the crease right behind the shoulder and out through the blade of the off shoulder at 575 yards. Caliber in and about 1-1/2" out. Lungs also jello. I did not take any pics of the carnage but it was very very similar between the two shots at very different distances. I shoot bergers almost exclusively and have never had a failure myself. Never tried mono's but I had a fair bit of inconsistency with 200 accubonds out of a 300 rum. Shooting 230 bergers out of it now and couldn't be happier with its performance on game. That is a 10 twist barrel also on the rum but I hunt and live at high enough elevation that I'm always over 1.5 sg

 

[jlreff]

You've been very fortunate. I also hunt high and low elevations. But unlike you have had failures with Berger as well as others. But have had the same preformence as you with my Barnes. In fact had a Berger blow up on a c ou se whitetail. Didn't even make it through the forearm.

 

[couesaddict]

You've been very fortunate. I also hunt high and low elevations. But unlike you have had failures with Berger as well as others. But have had the same preformence as you with my Barnes. In fact had a Berger blow up on a c ou se whitetail. Didn't even make it through the forearm.

I had an accubond do that at 700 yds on a coues the same year a friend shot a cow elk with that same rifle of mine. 3 accubonds pin holed through the boiler room of that cow at 600 yds. Killed a pile of stuff with bergers ranging from 115 grains to 300 grains and have been very happy with them myself. Accubonds and I'm sure Barnes are good bullets too, I just prefer the bergers. They shoot great in my rifles and have killed everything I've shot with them. Entrance and exits always seem very predictable also. This is just my experience. I live in Az and don't have time to hunt out of state so I don't get the option to stack up near as many kills as a lot of the members.

 

[jlreff]

Live same place as you. Had the same thing happen with Nosler Sierra and others. In a standard throat and factory rifles have to play with what bullets will work. I've gotten sub moa out of Barnes regularly. Plus a lot of places are gone lead free. Just like where you live. Played with a lot of bullets in a lot of rifles over the years. Look up Dave miller has been doing what people on this site are doing. Uses the 300wby with 168 s m k with mixed results. First and last deer I shot with a Berger I lost over half to bloodshot.