I have one B-14 and it shoots awesome for a $600 gun. I have two Wolf Precision Rifles built and they both have BAT actions in them. All action seem junk after using BAT. JMO
UK gunsmiths and custom rifle builders refusing to work on Bergara rifles because of their poor quality
- Thread starter simone
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cabelasken
Well-Known Member
My friends rifle shoots very well, but he has to keep an oily rag to wipe it down after handling it because it tends to rust rather quickly.
Well I'm a Brit and worked for a UK smith, here is my own personal experience with Bergaras. When they were first introduced to the UK a rep brought a sample to us, we checked it out and were quite impressed so we ordered 4. When they arrived the test targets were impressive and the actions lovely and slick, we borescoped them and checked bolt lug lockup etc and for the money we found them hard to fault. I was looking for a new 30.06 stalking rifle after a bad experience with a Model 70. Sorry guys but the model 70 I owned was a complete piece of crap, after extensive load development it just made 1.5 MOA and the dodgy factory trigger had to be replaced with a Timmney for safety's sake. I digress I ordered a Bargara in 30.06 when it arrived the test target was far from impressive, a quick look down the barrel with the scope and it was returned to the importer! So one thing I can say is their quality control leaves a lot to be desired. Yes you may get a good one but you can bet your life someone else will get a bad one. I have seen the comments made by the UK smith and I know the guy, he is one of the UK's best. If he has experienced those problems you can bet what he says is true.
Bang4theBuck
Well-Known Member
I only have one bergara, and it is a crazy accurate rimfire rifle, and have only handled a couple others casually. My opinion is that we as a gun community tend to focus on some of the craziest things to determine what makes a firearm good and what makes a firearm bad. We never seem to take the time to qualify what makes something junk, and what makes it great.
While a very smooth action feels good in hand to some, what does it really matter or represent in the grand scheme? I've never handled a savage that didn't feel like a sloppy clunky mess, but In all my years of dealing with Savage rifles, I have never met a savage that wasn't sub moa. Most sub 3/4 moa.
If someone is going to claim that something is junk....please offer some statistical data that supports this. Kinda like the transmissions in 2014 to 2017 GM full size trucks.....statistically, there is more than a 40% chance that they are going to prematurely fail. It's a known thing.
If we are going to continue to be a wealth of good information, we need to publish qualified, accurate, non-biased feedback. Not conjecture or self-serving opinions.
To be clear, this post is not aimed at anyone or any post in particular, just an opinion from an everyday observer.
While a very smooth action feels good in hand to some, what does it really matter or represent in the grand scheme? I've never handled a savage that didn't feel like a sloppy clunky mess, but In all my years of dealing with Savage rifles, I have never met a savage that wasn't sub moa. Most sub 3/4 moa.
If someone is going to claim that something is junk....please offer some statistical data that supports this. Kinda like the transmissions in 2014 to 2017 GM full size trucks.....statistically, there is more than a 40% chance that they are going to prematurely fail. It's a known thing.
If we are going to continue to be a wealth of good information, we need to publish qualified, accurate, non-biased feedback. Not conjecture or self-serving opinions.
To be clear, this post is not aimed at anyone or any post in particular, just an opinion from an everyday observer.
Snowboy
Well-Known Member
The Brits do not have the market on being snobbish. Just look around in any country and you will find that rude, snobbish, entitled and holier-than-thou attitude seems to be a human trait.
Just saying don't start throwing stones.
I lived there 10 years and I concur. Not trashing our English cousins. As it is said, we are a similar people separated by a common language. Or something like that.
Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
You mean the ones that build 5.56mm's, 6mm's, 7mm's, 6.5mm's or 7.62mm's?
Last edited:
johngibbs222
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2012
- Messages
- 187
This original post sounds like a terminal case of internetitis, which tends to be rife on shooting forums, auto forums, DIY forums etc etc. in fact ALL hobby forums.
I saw a few posts on here that I would strongly disagree with the first was brits look down their snobbish noses at spanish guns, this just isn't so and the great bulk of the Spanish gunmakers produce fine guns marketed as their own by the respected "old names" in the british gunmaking industry. As a brit, I've owned many spanish guns from the humble to the rangetoppers and they've all performed well, only one had an issue which resulted in the importer changing the gun for another one.
The second issue was that there was no british gun built for "the common man" , BSA fulfilled this role for many years, of course they aren't in the gunmaking business any more as the level of investment necessary to compete in a tiny home market just isn't justifiable at which point it's worth returning to the OP and pointing out a few issues that british gunsmiths face that probably aren't mirrored elsewhere, notably the proofing system.
In the UK it's illegal for dealer to sell a firearm that is either unproofed or has been altered in some of the areas that have been previously proofed. This isn't for private sales, where the caveat emptor rule works.
After a smith has made or altered a gun he has to submit it for proof at one of the government sanctioned independent proof houses.
AFAIK, the first thing that occurs is the proof master has the gun inspected to ensure it's fit to be proofed. A pile of rust and chippings in a rifle barrel isn't the thing he will be looking for and there is every possibility that such a gun would fall at this first hurdle.
The proof test consists of firing a cartridge that will generate a 20% pressure overload over the CIP specification for the cartridge in question "without (the firearm) sustaining visible or measurable changes". I have to say that I understand the pressure spike is very much cartridge dependent ie if the gun has a tight bore very short lead in to the rifling and a tight chamber then it's possible the pressure spike will be more than the 20%. Either way, if the gun passes it's proof the cartridge it's chambered for and service pressure is stamped on the barrel as is the bore dimension in some cases; all the components subject to pressure are stamped with the proofhouse mark and the customer can buy the gun secure in the knowledge that it won't blow up in his face straight away.
All new guns imported into the UK have to be proofed unless the manufacturer is governed by the reciprocal arrangement CIP rules, which is why Spanish guns can be freely imported without proof testing but guns made in the USA have to undergo proof testing.
So you can see why any gunmaker or gunsmith worth his salt will be reluctant to undertake work on components that have a checkered or mottled reputation as right up until the proof test is passed it's built at his risk ie if it blows up at proof the gunsmith foots the bill.
With regard to the tomato issue, at some of the gardening competitions the size of the tomatoes shown rivals the speculated size of Tom Jones' cojones so you'd want a pretty sturdy tomato peg
.
One issue that was raised were comments by several posters one or two saying the gun shot 1/3 or 1/2 moa straight from the factory and another one saying that it took 100 rounds to break the barrel in wt f is that? sounds like that's an attack of internetitis to me.
Just a snobby brit's 0.02c worth.
I saw a few posts on here that I would strongly disagree with the first was brits look down their snobbish noses at spanish guns, this just isn't so and the great bulk of the Spanish gunmakers produce fine guns marketed as their own by the respected "old names" in the british gunmaking industry. As a brit, I've owned many spanish guns from the humble to the rangetoppers and they've all performed well, only one had an issue which resulted in the importer changing the gun for another one.
The second issue was that there was no british gun built for "the common man" , BSA fulfilled this role for many years, of course they aren't in the gunmaking business any more as the level of investment necessary to compete in a tiny home market just isn't justifiable at which point it's worth returning to the OP and pointing out a few issues that british gunsmiths face that probably aren't mirrored elsewhere, notably the proofing system.
In the UK it's illegal for dealer to sell a firearm that is either unproofed or has been altered in some of the areas that have been previously proofed. This isn't for private sales, where the caveat emptor rule works.
After a smith has made or altered a gun he has to submit it for proof at one of the government sanctioned independent proof houses.
AFAIK, the first thing that occurs is the proof master has the gun inspected to ensure it's fit to be proofed. A pile of rust and chippings in a rifle barrel isn't the thing he will be looking for and there is every possibility that such a gun would fall at this first hurdle.
The proof test consists of firing a cartridge that will generate a 20% pressure overload over the CIP specification for the cartridge in question "without (the firearm) sustaining visible or measurable changes". I have to say that I understand the pressure spike is very much cartridge dependent ie if the gun has a tight bore very short lead in to the rifling and a tight chamber then it's possible the pressure spike will be more than the 20%. Either way, if the gun passes it's proof the cartridge it's chambered for and service pressure is stamped on the barrel as is the bore dimension in some cases; all the components subject to pressure are stamped with the proofhouse mark and the customer can buy the gun secure in the knowledge that it won't blow up in his face straight away.
All new guns imported into the UK have to be proofed unless the manufacturer is governed by the reciprocal arrangement CIP rules, which is why Spanish guns can be freely imported without proof testing but guns made in the USA have to undergo proof testing.
So you can see why any gunmaker or gunsmith worth his salt will be reluctant to undertake work on components that have a checkered or mottled reputation as right up until the proof test is passed it's built at his risk ie if it blows up at proof the gunsmith foots the bill.
With regard to the tomato issue, at some of the gardening competitions the size of the tomatoes shown rivals the speculated size of Tom Jones' cojones so you'd want a pretty sturdy tomato peg
.One issue that was raised were comments by several posters one or two saying the gun shot 1/3 or 1/2 moa straight from the factory and another one saying that it took 100 rounds to break the barrel in wt f is that? sounds like that's an attack of internetitis to me.
Just a snobby brit's 0.02c worth.
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Can't argue with that assessment of savage "smoothness", they feel pretty sloppy when you cycle them. But I like mine. Because, ugly and sloppy as they are in comparison, they just plain outshoot some of my buddies much nicer and smoother and more aesthetically pleasing - and pricier - rifles. (the friends that have less kids and more money to burn
) Not always of course, but it really has driven some of them nuts that my very ugly and sloppy feeling early 2000s 111 .270 has consistently shot tighter groups than a tikka t3, browning a bolt, and rem 700 that exist or existed within our friend group at one point or other.
Agreed! I was stationed in RAF Lakenheath for 3.5 years and have traveled throughout UK and EU and never had any issues. My overall experience was all positive.
Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
All the gunsmiths I've dealt with in the UK use the same system as the US,Imperial system.
I have been into the custom rifle game for some time. A couple years ago, I decided to see how far factory rifles had come so I picked up a HMR Pro in 65 Creed. Immediately, I noticed a couple of things. The machining of the action and bolt was excellent compared to the R 700's I used in the past as donors. Not as tight as a custom but very little slop. The stock was built like a brick **** house and ergonomic. The bottom metal is of poor quality and the mag release (steel), needed to be filed down a tiny bit to accommodate a real non-polymer AICS mag. It consistently shot factory Hornady 140 ELD-M into .5 MOA and my 140 Berger reloads into .27 MOA. I had it re-barreled with a Bartlein not too long ago and am in the process of doing load development now. It was chambered by a very well known company and stated that the action did not need to be trued when asked. Overall, I am very impressed with the HMR Pro. I have not used the B14.
As with any significant decision in life, what woman to marry, what church to attend, what car to buy, selecting a riflesmith is not that much different. Our OP is doing the research a fair minded and astute individual would do before making a choice. At brief look at the history of Bergara is here: https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/bergara-from-blackpowder-beginnings-to-rifle-powerhouse/ The OP is correct in asking the question in my opinion, and any first hand experience with the brand should out weigh pure rumor or opinions. If the quality varies from one rifle to another, that's a real issue for me, and I would choose a different action and brand. As stated, if you want a good shooting rifle, and looks are not important? You have several choices.
In my case I needed to find a good local riflesmith to rechamber a Krieger bull barrel and make it into a custom rifle in a chamber that was more available than .243 AI. So, I asked my local reamer manufacturer Manson Manufacturing, for a recommendation. They had only one, but he was highly recommended. Who better than a supplier of reamers to ask for a recommendation? I was instantly impressed after our initial conversation and despite 3 delays at his end, the result was a beautiful 9 lb. rifle on a blue printed Rem 700 action, Trigger Tech trigger, PTG fluted bolt and MTD chassis. I would highly recommend this riflesmith.
