Totally Over My Head

[Slafav]

Another question. Is it better to lay down the money in the beginning while learning the basics of drop, wind, etc or should I stay cheap in the beginning and swap out parts as I go along? I know in sports like golf (no comparison to shooting) it is always best to start out with the best stuff you can afford because it is such an equipment dependent activity. Is shooting the same?

 

[Alfred Crouch]

+ 1 for the 270 WSM. A super caliber. The 270 Win is also good.

Check it out. Get some ballistic tables that show bullet drop, bullet velocity at various distances and foot pounds of energy at various distances. Most tables are reasonaably close. Nosler typically shows velocity a bit on the high side though.

I would save my money and buy good eqp as I could if I thought I was going to use it for an extended period of time. If this shooting activity is likely to be short lived you may do better to get more reasonably priced eqp.

According to data from most 270WSM users you should get a barrel life of 1000 to 1200 (depending on how hot you load them) which would give you 10 to 12 years of shooting if you shot 100 rounds a year. Replacing a barrel will cost from $550 to $650 depending on barrel and gunsmith....... not that big of a deal for most who like to shoot.......$55 to $65 per year. A 270 Win will likely give a much longer barrel life than the WSM.

 

[sambo3006]

Welcome to LRH!
You mentioned the possibility of stretching the yardage "a bit" out to 800-900 yards. That is a pretty tall order. I'm fairly new to the long range game, having only been serious for about 5 years, and I am just now reaching out beyond 600 yards. You start getting out beyond there and wind drift can become a major factor, as well as exact ranging and knowing the actual trajectory of your bullet, not just what the charts say. A good rangefinder is a must to start with.
Shooting a bullet with a high ballistic coefficient such as a Berger VLD will help to minimize wind drift and maximize retained velocity and thus energy at longer ranges. Unfortunately, that will involve handloading. I would suggest getting a 7mm Remington Magnum and practicing with it out to 400-500 yards with factory ammo and a ballistic reticle scope like the Burris or Nikon or a couple others. Then if you think you want to stretch it out farther, you can get into handloading and try the 168 gr Berger VLD bullet. It would probably be a good idea at that point to upgrade to a scope with reliable adjustable elevation and windage turrets. That is similar to the path I have taken, I'm sure you will get plenty more input.

Have a great day!

Sam

 

[LongBomber]

Is rifle wieght an issue? If not I would take a hard look at something like a remington sendero. A few different manufacturers make similar rifles, browning makes a m1000 eclipse, tikka makes a tactical, Kimber makes a few tactical rifles. If you go with a sendero you can get a 300rum which has ballistics nearing some of the larger wildcat calibers.

A 308 will be fine (game out to 400ish and targets to 1000), there are many very accurate factory loads developed for the 308, starting with Federal gold metal match. Black Hills also has a good load.

 

[Slafav]

Rifle weight isn't an issue. I don't mind building muscle as I walk, and I don't carry the heavy packs that some other guys do. I don't think I am visualizing my ranges right, because the thought of 400 yrds isn't that bad. Now my first job is to measure it out and see the reality of my thinking.

 

[squirrelduster]

I saw a new Savage Tactical model with a scope for $1100.00 in 308 with a muzzle brake.

This rifle is supposed to really shoot from the reports I have heard. 308 rifles are one of the most available rounds out there with many different bullet styles and weights.

If you don't reload stay away from any of the WSM cartridges. They are really expensive and hard to find in little towns if you run out of ammo.

308 ammo is always on sale some place and pretty hard to beat out to 400 yards.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The Sendero would be a great factory LR rifle. Most are tack drivers. I like the original SF vs the newer SFII. The newer ones have a wider beavertail forearm and a wide palm swell that doesn't fit me very well. They come in 264 WM, 7 RM, 7 RUM, 300 WM and 300 RUM. The RUMS will get about 200-300 fps more than the other mags and burn out a little quicker. Figure a 1000 rounds for barrel life on the RUMS, maybe a little more if you dont run them too hot and give the barrel a good brak-in and Gun Juice treatment. The older ones also come in a few other cals like 25-06.

EDIT: You could run a mild load in the RUMs and get better performanc than the other mags and probably get descent barrel life.

You should be able to find a used one for less than a $1000 if you look around. It's best to buy from the original owner, but pawn shops can be a good place to find one for a good price. Offer them a rcok bottom cash price and see what they say. Thing is, if you buy used from a pawn shop or dealer, you dont know how many rounds are down the tube already. I would use that as a bargaining chip. It would be a little bit of a gamble. You could also leave a deposit on it and take it to a smith to bore scope it and give you an evaluation of the bore.

The Sendero 700 action is a solid action for a later build and the HS aluminum bedded stock is a great stock. So it's a great plattform for a future build if and when you burn your barrel out. A great LR starter rifle.

-MR

 

[trebark]

+1 on AJ Peacock's comment below.

A .308 with factory ammo will definitely take a deer at 400yards. You can shoot varmints (coyotes and groundhogs) at 1000 and beyond. I talk the talk and walk the walk. Here are links to two of my rifles:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/my-308-1k-rifle-updated-field-pics-43510/ I have about $1300 invested in this rifle.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/my-280-updated-32771/ I have about $2000 invested in this one.

Hope that helps.

If 400yds is your maximum distance and deer are the largest game you intend to hunt; a heavy barrelled .308win and a good 3x9 scope would easily do what you intend. Ammo for the 308Win is as available as about any cartridge. It is a proven performer and a modestly heavy barrel will reduce recoil to a very comfortable level for extended target practice. The barrel life on the 308 is about as good as it gets for rifles that would meet your requirements.

AJ

 

[X3MHunter]

Get a Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308 and a Leupold 6-18X40 VXII scope with target turrets (About $1000.00 for both). The 308 Winchester has plenty energy for 400 yard hunting and very accurate factory loads are available at reasonable prices from Black Hills. An accurate rifle and good equipment is very important in long range shooting in order to get predictable results. If you have an accurate rifle and you miss, you know it was you who is to blame for the miss and can work on correcting your mistakes.

I would not recommend any magnums because eventhough the pack more punch for 400 yard hunting, they are not the best choice for practicing. I started with a 300 Win. Mag. and could only endure about 20 shots from that rifle when practicing (no muzzle brake). Also in about 2 months of continuos shooting my throat washed out about .125 inch, at that point even my handloads with 175 Matchkings would not shoot good because they were jumping .135 in. instead of .010 in., also it was very expensive to feed.

If you ever get more serious about Long Range shooting and eventually want to build a custom rifle, the Remington 700 action is what you want. Also if you ever want to try something else and maybe take up reloading, you could always build a 260 or 260 Ackley Improved, which has excellent ballistics for 1000 yard shooting.
Remember it's all about SHOT PLACEMENT! You can do alot more damage on game if you hit them in the vitals with a 308 Winchester than if you gut shoot them with a 300 RUM. The only way you will ever get to that point is with practice, so a rifle that you can shoot comfortably in a long range session is a must.
I think the Remington 700 SPS Varmint in 308 Win. would be a heck of a starter rifle.
Remington Model 700â"¢ SPSâ"¢ Varmint

Just my $.02, let us know what you decide on.

 

[britz]

Hello and welcome to LRH.com!

I think AJ hit the nail on the head w/ his comments.

Lets face it... if you are just getting into lrh than you need to brush up quite a bit on your target shooting skills which equals possibly thousands of rounds of target practice in the next couple years. A wsm or even a win mag is going to get pretty espensive to shoot target with considering ammo alone. The 308 will offer lots of match grade factory ammo, lots of el'cheapo rounds for plinking and you will have a barrel that will last you until you become proficient at shooting.

If you were to buy a 270 wsm, the biggest thing you will "gain" is that when you are just starting to feel comfortable shooting that rifle at long range, you will then get a new barrel because your original barrel will be totally shot out!

The two best rounds for someone to learn the basics of long range shooting and doesn't handload are the 223 rem and the 308 win BAR NONE! easy on barrels, inexpensive ammo, and long long barrel life. Not to mention that you can find ammo at almost any mom and pop gas station in the country if you happen to run out on a hunting trip.

Once you get into it and get used to shooting and want to extend your range... then start looking at the bigger magnums.

A compramise in getting better balistics and not so expensive ammo would be something like the 7-08 or the 260 rem. Problem is that they are much harder to find ammo for.

IMHO you'll do fine learning to shoot w/ a good old 308 win. Forces you to learn wind and tradjectories but is known to be a good efficient cartridge. There's a reason that the US military still uses the 308 win for their primary sniper rifles. It's by far not the best long range round, but it works.

 

[X3MHunter]

Slafav,

I live in Floresville, Texas, about 30 miles south of San Antonio. We shoot from 300 all the way out to 1000 about once a month at a private range. We shoot 6BRX, 6.5-284 Norma, 280 Ackley, 308 Win., and 300 Win Mag. You are welcome to come over next time we shoot and try out the 308 and the 300 Win. Mag. so that you can see the difference between the two.

You can shoot the 308 at 400 so that you can see how accurate it can be. You can shoot it at 1000 also so that you can get a feel for what it's like. Let me know, we are going to shoot on July 19 if you want to get together and try out our rigs and see some of the equipment we use.

-X3M

 

[Slafav]

That's a very generous offer and greatly appreciated. I will try and get the day off to come check it out. I'll pm you and let you know.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Hello and welcome to LRH.com!

I think AJ hit the nail on the head w/ his comments.

Lets face it... if you are just getting into lrh than you need to brush up quite a bit on your target shooting skills which equals possibly thousands of rounds of target practice in the next couple years. A wsm or even a win mag is going to get pretty espensive to shoot target with considering ammo alone. The 308 will offer lots of match grade factory ammo, lots of el'cheapo rounds for plinking and you will have a barrel that will last you until you become proficient at shooting.

If you were to buy a 270 wsm, the biggest thing you will "gain" is that when you are just starting to feel comfortable shooting that rifle at long range, you will then get a new barrel because your original barrel will be totally shot out!

The two best rounds for someone to learn the basics of long range shooting and doesn't handload are the 223 rem and the 308 win BAR NONE! easy on barrels, inexpensive ammo, and long long barrel life. Not to mention that you can find ammo at almost any mom and pop gas station in the country if you happen to run out on a hunting trip.

Once you get into it and get used to shooting and want to extend your range... then start looking at the bigger magnums.

A compramise in getting better balistics and not so expensive ammo would be something like the 7-08 or the 260 rem. Problem is that they are much harder to find ammo for.

IMHO you'll do fine learning to shoot w/ a good old 308 win. Forces you to learn wind and tradjectories but is known to be a good efficient cartridge. There's a reason that the US military still uses the 308 win for their primary sniper rifles. It's by far not the best long range round, but it works.

Britz,

You make some good points, but... I dont think it's necessary to shoot thousands of rounds to become proficient for LRH. The marksmanship is basic marksmanship, whether 100 yds or a 1000 yds. Now there are some complications when you reach out there, like wind doping, making sure sure your rifle/sightline is plumb, etc. But a guy who can shoot a .25 MOA group with a good rifle and load @ 100 yds should be able to shoot an MOA group @ 1000 yds with minimal practice.

So having said that, most rounds down the tube will usually be fired in load development and trajectory/BC validation. Depending on how many differnt loads one tries, this should be able to be accomplished in a few hundred rounds. If one gets his load development done in 300 rounds and shoots another 100 rounds a year, that barrel should last maybe 10 years at wich time he is ready for a sweet hand lapped custom barrel. And if you want longer barrel life, go to the 300 WSM which will rival the 308.

A 308 is a great cal, but the 270 WSM has a lot better ballistics including 20% less wind drift. I guess we all have our preferences.

As for cost of shooting, 308 factory ammo will be a little cheaper, but the 270 WSM has a good selection of relatively cheap stuff and good stuff. And if you are talking about shooting thousands of rounds of ammo (hope you are reading this Slafav). You could buy the handloading eqipment and components after you have shot 2000-3000 factory rounds for same. Also, I think we both know that factory loads will differ from lot to lot. So every time you go to Wal Mart and get your ammo, you are back to shooting a few sighters to see where you are. And if you run out ammo while you are hunting, that is PPP and you may not get the load at the mom and pop country store that you got back at Wal Mart and even if you did, it would be a different lot. Besides, in all the stores around here, there is almost as good a selection of 270 WSM as there is 308.

My philosophy is... if you're going to go LR, then go... Get the rifle that is capable and do it. If you want a plinker then get that later.

Being ex-military, I have to agree with you that there is always a reason that the military does something, and from my experience on being in the decision making process a few times, it aint always a good reason , not to say that the 308 wasn't a good cal, but neither did they have the WSM cartridges at the time.

Best,

-MR

 

[MontanaRifleman]

That's a very generous offer and greatly appreciated. I will try and get the day off to come check it out. I'll pm you and let you know.

Slafav,

That is an awesome offer and you should take it up if at all possible. We are all slinging a lot of BS around here based on our experiences and preferences, but breaking the trigger is where it's at.

Let's get a reality check... if you want to shoot 400-500 yds, you should be able to do that rasonably well with a good factory rifle and ammo. However, 500 yds will be stretching it on a consistant basis. Factory ammo will change from lot to lot. If you are serious about LR you need to start handloading. Other considerations are precise ranging which is critical beyond 400 yds. And when you get farther down range you will need to know things like elevation, pressure altitude, temp, etc. The farther you go, the more complex it gets.

As far as shooting big mags comfortably, that is very possble. There are a number of ways that people accomplish that and mine is to use a slip-on recoil pad on the bench and take it off for the field. I can shoot a 300 mag all day very comfortably with a slip-on pad.

Good shooting and have fun with X3M and his buds,

-MR