Stop loading large batches of ammunition

[bigngreen]

That's 100% Correct and fair statement but I would bet 95% of hunters can't shoot well enough to get a .250" moa rifle to shoot in .5 moa consistently. None the less at 1K. The time and practice it takes is far more than all bet the most obsessed gun nuts are willing to spend.
Wsm what caliber are you bench shooting in contrast to your hunter

Your selling a lot of people short!! I've seen a LOT of guys with a very little work, mostly getting them to get off the freaking rifle, can put together decent work but one thing is dang sure you'll never learn to shoot 1/4 moa if you load for 1.5 moa!!

 

[25WSM]

Most of my customers can shoot pretty dang good. You can tell who shoots alot when you see them set up there gear. Some people need a little coaching but not much. And then you get the guy that you swear he's going to shoot the building. Keeps moving everything. Holds the gun 15 ways to Sunday. Then they shoot a clover leaf and it's dang how the heck did they pull that off. It's easy to take for granted that guys buying a custom rifle are probably experienced shooters. But even the guys just getting a bedding job or a new barrel. Most guys shoot pretty dang good. They all want to shoot my match rifles and I let them. Most shoot the best group of their life shooting them with my setup. When you get everything working like the load and the bag and rest setup shooting gets easy. You know how people say their gun shoots better than them. Not normally. Most just don't get all that their rifle can give. And that's holding them back. They think they don't shoot good and really it's the gun not in tune. Or all coppered up. That's the 2 things I see most. Not knowing how to tune their ammo and not knowing how to clean their rifle.
Shep

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well to clarify some things. I dont personally hold 23 records, those are customers, and records dont mean anything in this discussion anyhow. I am capable of separating the competition stuff from hunting stuff. I work with hunting rifles at distance more than competition rifles by a long shot. In fact this post would not apply if we were using br rifles to hunt with, they still shoot more than good enough even out of tune to kill cleanly. The magnums that wear the throats so fast and the sporter contour barrels that have a much higher amplitude can shoot pretty big at distance if they go out of tune. 1.5 moa would be a disaster if your talking about a clean kill at 1200 yards. Heavy barrels still go out of tune but because the amplitude of their harmonics are smaller, they dont shoot as poorly out of tune. My last 28 nosler's throat moved .017" in 100 rounds, it needed the throat chased and .3gn more powder to get back in tune from barrel wear alone, not including weather changes. Like I said earlier, most of this stuff just doesnt matter at mid range, but past 800 or so it really starts to show up. Most well built rifles will shoot Bergers into 5" or better at 1k if they are tuned, nothing crazy either, no sorting or fussing. Add in all the other variables and mistakes we make, and its still not easy to cold bore at 1k and beyond. Many forget the other variables and mistakes, An moa rifle at these distances requires every thing else to happen perfectly.

 

[david g ranes]

Well to clarify some things. I dont personally hold 23 records, those are customers, and records dont mean anything in this discussion anyhow. I am capable of separating the competition stuff from hunting stuff. I work with hunting rifles at distance more than competition rifles by a long shot. In fact this post would not apply if we were using br rifles to hunt with, they still shoot more than good enough even out of tune to kill cleanly. The magnums that wear the throats so fast and the sporter contour barrels that have a much higher amplitude can shoot pretty big at distance if they go out of tune. 1.5 moa would be a disaster if your talking about a clean kill at 1200 yards. Heavy barrels still go out of tune but because the amplitude of their harmonics are smaller, they dont shoot as poorly out of tune. My last 28 nosler's throat moved .017" in 100 rounds, it needed the throat chased and .3gn more powder to get back in tune from barrel wear alone, not including weather changes. Like I said earlier, most of this stuff just doesnt matter at mid range, but past 800 or so it really starts to show up. Most well built rifles will shoot Bergers into 5" or better at 1k if they are tuned, nothing crazy either, no sorting or fussing. Add in all the other variables and mistakes we make, and its still not easy to cold bore at 1k and beyond. Many forget the other variables and mistakes, An moa rifle at these distances requires every thing else to happen perfectly.

Alex what do you feel the percentage of rifles you have shot are capable of 1/4 inch groups and if they don't how long do you give them before you quit chasing your tail and move on to another barrel. David

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

The small details that most hunters don't want to take into account to reliably kill game at distance.

This here should be well known facts, unfortunately it gets missed all the time!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex what do you feel the percentage of rifles you have shot are capable of 1/4 inch groups and if they don't how long do you give them before you quit chasing your tail and move on to another barrel. David

If you go through the parts and make sure everything is how it should be, all of them. Bad barrels from the top makers are extremely rare. I mean extremely rare. I stay away from the budget barrels, in the big picture, the price between top stuff and mid grade is small and the aggravation it can cause is not worth it.

 

[25WSM]

I tell my customers I've done everything I can do to give all the parts a chance to be great. No you got to do your part at the loading bench. Have to tune a load that it likes or it really doesn't matter how good the rifle is. There are stuff like 6ppcs and 6brs
30 brs and 222s that seem to shoot pretty good with just about anything. But not most.
Shep

 

[DJ Fergus]

I want to get this out there for those that dont know. Barrels dont have "pet loads". Changes in weather, and wear in the throat keeps the load moving all the time. If you go to the range and find a good load, and come home and load 300 rounds, your going to be stuck shooting a sub par load. This is exaggerated the farther you shoot and also by the quality of your barrel. There are barrels out there that will hold a tune almost all the time, they are a once in a life time barrel, not really worth talking about. To put this into context, if your shooting 3" at 600 yards and you go out of tune and shoot 5" your still going to be ok, on elk even deer if you do everything else right. But if your planning to shoot 1000 for example and your normally shooting 6" but now your 12" plus because your out of tune, your in trouble, even if you call everything else perfect. So obviously the max distance you plan to shoot will determine how well your rifle needs to be tuned. Just know that sporter contour barrels can go out of tune very dramatically at 1k and beyond, as the trajectory really starts to effect them past 800. My advice is to only load the amount of ammo you need for your next range trip or hunt and check your tune often, especially often coming up to a hunt and in as close to the conditions you plan to shoot in as possible.

Small batches is the way I've always done it because I don't want a bunch of loaded up ammo if something changes. I only have hunting rifle, no comp rifles. Once I get a load dialed in, I will load up about 10 rounds. Usually no more than 15 rounds at most. I shoot that up & load some proof rounds just like the last to see if any adjustments need to be made or not. I'm running big overbore cartridges, so I do expect to have to tune the load over the life of the barrel. I completely agree with you, Tiny groups is something that you've got to chase after. It's not a problem when if a fellow knows how to chase it.

 

[PBR driver]

Nothing worse than a picky gun. I think that's why so many guys are shooting the 300wsm. Real easy to tune and a very wide node.
Shep

A picky gun just maybe the cause of the receiver or shoulder of a BBL having a high spot causing stress and forced misalignment of the Bore to the center line of the action.
As the BBL vibrates during the shot the bulet exits the bore at different "times" or spots from shot to shot.
A properly assembled rifle should by all accounts shoot different loads accurately.
Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[DJ Fergus]

Your selling a lot of people short!! I've seen a LOT of guys with a very little work, mostly getting them to get off the freaking rifle, can put together decent work but one thing is dang sure you'll never learn to shoot 1/4 moa if you load for 1.5 moa!!

I've saw alot of guys with factory rifles shooting factory ammo, getting >1.5 moa and they actually think their rifle is a one holer but think they just can't shoot it that good.