Shoulder mounted "recoil pad" Can the ATF regulate non-firearm mounted accessories?

[Ckgworks]

First off- NOT long range, but firearm related.
We got to messing around with my son's 3d printer, and a soft rubber filliment, and have a question for you all. Who else hates those bulky rattling collapsing AR-15 stocks? obviously this is only for rifles, no one would shoulder anything else.
With this "recoil pad" mounted on your backpack strap, or independent strap, maybe even velcro to a shirt you can have a shoulder mounted recoil pad to securely hold your buffer tube directly to your shoulder, and ditch your stock off your buffer tube......it's also soft enough to fold over when under the pressure of a regular buttock so you can still shoot comfortably. It allows you to shoulder the buffer tube higher on your shoulder, without it slipping up over the top, hopefully these couple pictures of a prototype explain it well enough.......
What say you?

 

[cohunt]

Technically- no they can't regulate it--- doesn't mean they wouldn't try.

Ultimately it still comes down to "intent" --- this has always been a gray area of the law, how does the atf know what a person's intent is? How can it be proved?

Ultimately your device is intended to skirt the sbr/buttstock/pistol brace laws- no doubt in my mind or anyone else's. As stupid as it seems If you shoulder a pistol you have created an sbr (especially if you are using a device to do it with- thats why the whole pistol brace fiasco is happening)

it is a novel idea, I'm sure people would buy it--- but it has only 1 intent. It is not made for shouldering a rifle--- because the definition of a rifle includes a buttstock- so if you are using it for shouldering a rifle with no buttstock -- is it a rifle anymore? Or have you now created an "AOW" by definition of the nfa/atf? (These require tegistration/tax stamps under the nfa too)
Will you sell "extended length buffer tubes" also?

Also if your "intent" is to use it as a rifle butttock- then now it is classified as a buttstock even if it doesn't look like a conventional one.

The problem isn't with your "invention" nore is it with the many pistol braces-- it's with all the youtube videos of people shouldering their pistols using these devices.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

^^^^^^^^^^
Depends on the barrel length for the SBR. If that "Recoil Pad" is put on a "Pistol" and then shoulder fired it would be the reason why the ATF is changing the Regulation AR Pistols with Arm Braces. Would basically be a SBR

Here is the information on Manufacturing.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-7/download#:~:text=7.2.2%20%E2%80%9CManufacturing%E2%80%9D.%20%E2%80%9CManufacturing%E2%80%9D%20is%20not%20defined%20by%20the,%E2%80%9Cfirearms%2C%E2%80%9D%20the%20person%20would%20not%20be%20a%20%E2%80%9Cmanufacturer.%E2%80%9D

 

[RWE]

First off- NOT long range, but firearm related.
We got to messing around with my son's 3d printer, and a soft rubber filliment, and have a question for you all. Who else hates those bulky rattling collapsing AR-15 stocks? obviously this is only for rifles, no one would shoulder anything else.
With this "recoil pad" mounted on your backpack strap, or independent strap, maybe even velcro to a shirt you can have a shoulder mounted recoil pad to securely hold your buffer tube directly to your shoulder, and ditch your stock off your buffer tube......it's also soft enough to fold over when under the pressure of a regular buttock so you can still shoot comfortably. It allows you to shoulder the buffer tube higher on your shoulder, without it slipping up over the top, hopefully these couple pictures of a prototype explain it well enough.......
What say you?
View attachment 430196

I SERIOUSLY NEED a 3d printer (and the skills to drive one)!!!!!!!! KUDOS!!!

Something like this (this is a much better idea than where I was going) is what I was talking about with a couple buddies when all this BS about "pistols" came up - what 9 mos ago?

I think that is a great idea, would work on chest rigs or plate carriers, even suspenders or as you say - velcro patched to a shirt!

 

[Ckgworks]

I know the above is true, and it's probably more of a rhetorical question, and a exercise in futility......we were discussing the brace ban and started talking about the next "accessory" that would come out. I don't have a real use for it personally, as I use conventional buttocks with the recoil pad built it, but a fun design build with my son. It really is a recoil pad though, not a buttstock......

 

[cohunt]

I will add that if you go through with printing/producing these... you might add a bit of a flare/taper to it so that it will aid a faster shouldering of your "rifle" without having to search for the pocket with the buffer tube.

Back in the day, before arm braces-- people used rubber cane tips, racquet balls or tennis balls, and strap on or shirt mounted shoulder pads (like the skeet shooting vests with pads) --- one of the gray areas was the actual length of your buffer tube--- some guys used to mount rifle length buffer tubes ( the round ones from the a2 rifle stocks) on their pistols-- atf wasn't fond of the longer length buffer tubes on pistols.
Ultimately it was weather or not you got caught actually shouldering your pistol.

I'm not sure the atf can make this new ruling stick ( just like the bumpstock ruling they tried) -- but it will probably take 2-3 years to be turned over in court.

You do you-- just know the laws and the consequences.

 

[cohunt]

I know the above is true, and it's probably more of a rhetorical question, and a exercise in futility......we were discussing the brace ban and started talking about the next "accessory" that would come out. I don't have a real use for it personally, as I use conventional buttocks with the recoil pad built it, but a fun design build with my son. It really is a recoil pad though, not a buttstock......

Atf doesn't really care if it's a pad or not-- I'm sure they will go back to "shouldering" .

Your device isn't a firearm by design so it can't really be regulated-- but the use of it on a pistol could be"banned" just like what is happening with the arm braces right now .

It ultimately comes down to intent and actual use--- if a pistol was "shouldered" using your "pad" then it's use would be as a stock n an "sbr" --- doesn't really matter what you call your "pad"--- it's intent is clear.

Have fun with it-- I had a similar idea of my own just not as refined-- but in the end its all about use and intent.

GCA/NFA laws were written before today's technology evolved and leave open "loopholes"--- just like the maxim 50 muzzle loader, pinned muzzl devices, and for some states - thumbhole stocks, bullet buttons, " fixed AR magazines, etc. --- things like this are why the atf is trying to "reinterpret" the definitions in the gca/nfa

Necessity and government are the mother of invention.

 

[jpfrog]

Your pad is fine. Your buffer tube is the problem. If your barrel is less than 16" and you have a receiver extension (buffer tube) you have an SBR per the recent rule update. If your AR is piston driven or the buffer assembly is fully contained within the upper receiver without the use of a buffer tube, you appear to be ok as long as your pistol doesn't have anything sticking out the back that could be placed against your shoulder.

 

[Ckgworks]

I honestly have stayed 100% up on the brace ban, so serious question here.....last I read on it, a length off the back hadn't been published or determined, meaning a standard AR pistol with standard pistol tube was still legal. Has that been changed to where a standard AR pistol is completely out the door? FYI, pictures show a 16" rifle with standard, Carbine tube....

Edit to add, I see on a NRA sight it looks like they may be treating it on a case by case basis.

 

[jpfrog]

I honestly have stayed 100% up on the brace ban, so serious question here.....last I read on it, a length off the back hadn't been published or determined, meaning a standard AR pistol with standard pistol tube was still legal. Has that been changed to where a standard AR pistol is completely out the door? FYI, pictures show a 16" rifle with standard, Carbine tube....

Yes. There is new detail in the new update from last week that includes tube extensions because they can still be shouldered even if they are smooth. This is catching a lot of people off guard. Basically, if your firearm has a rear extension/buffer tube, it is a rifle. From there, the barrel length comes into play.

 

[Ckgworks]

it'd be nice if they actually had a complete thought process before they start clicking off the day count......I had just searched for updates when you posted. I see they also put ban verbiage in to include advertising and actual use of any item......be interesting to see how that plays out in real life.

I really have no desire to push this into a manufacturing product......and I doubt anyone will do anything until clear ground rules are established on what actually makes a SBR a SBR. For me it's fun to try come up with a solution to a "problem" 99% of ideas flop, but it also is a training/teaching on minimizing the number of prototypes off the printer to get something usable for its intended use. I do believe that no matter what someone will create something and produce it that is not liked by the Agency in question.

 

[SWHandldr]

I honestly have stayed 100% up on the brace ban, so serious question here.....last I read on it, a length off the back hadn't been published or determined, meaning a standard AR pistol with standard pistol tube was still legal. Has that been changed to where a standard AR pistol is completely out the door? FYI, pictures show a 16" rifle with standard, Carbine tube....

IANAL; to the best of my knowledge, no. Many commentators on the issue have spoken to the AFT publishing nearly 300 ppgs of rules + 'clarification' yet how many issues remain ambiguous: Weight, buffer tube length, Lord only knows what else - and likely subject to change.

IMO this is a combination of intention and bureaucratic incompetence (redundant?). F-Troop knows this issue is politically driven by the current Oval Office occupant so ambiguousness is to their benefit.

The longer they can avoid being pinned down on specifics, the more time they have to jack with armed citizens. They seem to have stretched the rule-making / implementation over the longest time they could to produce the most convuluted / ambiguous verbiage possible. But clear, specific rules still ain't law. They know this and that declaring illegal what has been specifically & in writing been ruled legal for years not months is likely NOT to stand up to The Supremes' common use ruling.

Latest example of malicious intent, as reported by Jared of Guns & Gadgets (YouTube & other social media), is a GOA attorney directly reaching out to AFT at Shot Show, asking about the '88 day automatic NO' as applied to all who 'seek amnesty' by completing a Form One, supplying ID including fingerprints & address and photos of the firearm. AFT personnel told the attorney 'We would initiate enforcement' wrt owners who's apps are incomplete after 88 days.

If even a fraction of the millions of estimated owners of pistols with braces apply, no way will Feds will be able to complete processing & issue stamps to all applicants: GOTCHA!!!

The entire effort is political theater and undermines whatever tiny credibility the AFT may still have with law-abiding gun owners. It's stupid & short-sighted as it only allows Biden to say 'Lookee what we've done!' to Anti's and urban females terrified of gunzzzz - while convincing the rest of us the left is out of touch with reality, willing to further alienate us and to ignore and violate the Constitution in pursuit of their idiotic quest to disarm the law-abiding.

If we could sear ONE fact into their pea-sized brains, it would likely be something like 'Criminals ignore laws.' But the anti-freedom lawmakers already know that / don't care while the sheep think regulating everything down to & including how much cellophane tape one may use at a time will result in a More Perfect World.

Freedom and Responsibility are Scary. GET USED TO IT.

/rant mode off

 

[Reelamin]

If people want to have a "pistol" ar15 maybe stop shooting yourselves in the knees. Stop the youtube, tic toc, posting on internet, etc. etc. Clearly daily users and social media not criminals caused this gov plan to happen.

 

[cohunt]

The new proposal still is under the "26imch or less" stipulation for pistols if I'm reading correctly--- also it does say the "surface area" can't be enough to be shouldered--- I see a new "tapered" buffer tube end attachment comming out so it's diameter is reduced do as not to be "shouldered" ...... it also says the "length of pull" can't be consistent with a rifle length of pull---- what is the shortest lop for "youth" rifles out there right now? If you are less than that are you ok? Problem with all these atf "reinterpretations" is that they are vauge at best and addressed on a case by case basis.

Does anyone have solid info that you can't have a buffer tube at all? If so, how long do they consider a buffer tube to be? I've seen buffer tubes at 4" and 2.5" -- are these still "buffer tubes"?