Seating depth or right powder which comes 1st

[RustyRick]

When starting to find the right recipe for a new gun. Which do you work at first.

Find the seating depth that the barrel likes? or

Find the right powder and weight first, and then seating depth?

 

[4xforfun]

I always find powder first, seating depth second, and neck tention last. If I am unhappy and want to try a differnt powder, the rest stays the same. Once you find seating depth and neck tention you are done..they remain the same. The only thing that changes neck tention is if you change brass. The only thing that changes seating depth is changing to a differnt type bullet..ie..going from Berger VLD's to Hybirds or AMAX or ????. Different bullt weights of the same type should not change depth. (ie..230, 215, 200 ... Berger Hybirds)

My .02,

Tod

 

[longrangehunterII]

When looking for the most accurate load in a rifle, you'll need to concentrate on one variable at a time.

Select a good match quality bullet, ultimately it will be the bullet that will either shoot the best in a given rifle and then the powder type, last being tested will be the primer.

I usually change the powder first before seating depth and use the procedure below:

Obtain the seating depth from the rifle barrel's lands using the bullet you have selected.

Set up your seater so that the bullets are started 0.010" off the lands.

Select three powders and if the manual shows a powder that has worked best in their manual try that one, select a medium velocity load, (not the starting or max load).

Load six (6) cases with each powder, each case having .03-.05 increase in weight charge depending on the size of the case, .223 very small increases .01-02, 308, 30-06 .03 grain increases, 300 WM, 300 RUM, etc. .05 grain increases.

Plus two extra for foulers. You will have 18 rounds + 2 all seated 0.010" off the lands.

Test these over your chronograph and make sure you allow for proper cooling between the three shot groups. You'll be doing each powder at one time rather then round robin style. My reason is the residue from the burnt powder can have an effect on the next load being tested so I like to keep them separated.

What your looking for is a point where the velocity seems to flatten out even with a increase in powder weight charge, and at the same time the bullet POI are very close, or closer to each other then the rest in that string. This will be your weight charge area to work around next time if this powder is showing the best groups among the three of them.

From this data you'll find one powder seems better then the other. Start with that next time at the weight charge that the velocity level seemed to flatten. You'll be working with one variable at a time- seating depth, charge weight and last the primer.

If this wont give you the expected accuracy from the given rifle and cartridge. By that I don't mean to expect bug holes from a rifle that is not capable of delivering that kind of accuracy, few factory rifles will. Move on to either another powder or bullet. In my opinion the bullet will either shoot well or not for a given rifle, the barrel either likes it or not, and then the powder and lastly the primer used.

Remember that most of the time the most accurate load is found by trial and error. What works for one rifle may not for another rifle, even from the same gun builder.

Good luck

 

[4xforfun]

When looking for the most accurate load in a rifle, you'll need to concentrate on one variable at a time.

Select a good match quality bullet, ultimately it will be the bullet that will either shoot the best in a given rifle and then the powder type, last being tested will be the primer.

I usually change the powder first before seating depth and use the procedure below:

Obtain the seating depth from the rifle barrel's lands using the bullet you have selected.

Set up your seater so that the bullets are started 0.010" off the lands.

Select three powders and if the manual shows a powder that has worked best in their manual try that one, select a medium velocity load, (not the starting or max load).

Load six (6) cases with each powder, each case having .03-.05 increase in weight charge depending on the size of the case, .223 very small increases .01-02, 308, 30-06 .03 grain increases, 300 WM, 300 RUM, etc. .05 grain increases.

Plus two extra for foulers. You will have 18 rounds + 2 all seated 0.010" off the lands.

Test these over your chronograph and make sure you allow for proper cooling between the three shot groups. You'll be doing each powder at one time rather then round robin style. My reason is the residue from the burnt powder can have an effect on the next load being tested so I like to keep them separated.

What your looking for is a point where the velocity seems to flatten out even with a increase in powder weight charge, and at the same time the bullet POI are very close, or closer to each other then the rest in that string. This will be your weight charge area to work around next time if this powder is showing the best groups among the three of them.

From this data you'll find one powder seems better then the other. Start with that next time at the weight charge that the velocity level seemed to flatten. You'll be working with one variable at a time- seating depth, charge weight and last the primer.

If this wont give you the expected accuracy from the given rifle and cartridge. By that I don't mean to expect bug holes from a rifle that is not capable of delivering that kind of accuracy, few factory rifles will. Move on to either another powder or bullet. In my opinion the bullet will either shoot well or not for a given rifle, the barrel either likes it or not, and then the powder and lastly the primer used.

Remember that most of the time the most accurate load is found by trial and error. What works for one rifle may not for another rifle, even from the same gun builder.

Good luck

When I begin load development, I always start with a good jam....say +.020 and work my depth shorter if I need to. The reason....I never have to worry about a PSI spike when I adjust seating depth and get into the lands. No suprises, and I like to work in one direction.....away from the lands.

 

[FearNoWind]

I don't have enough money to buy $150 worth of powder to test three types of powder. I try to read as much as I can about the powder that seems to dominate the competitive shooter circles and start with one of those.
Then I select the bullet, matched to the twist of my barrel, that I want to try. I make the case adjustments (neck clearance, etc.) so that all the brass is as close to identical as possible. That sometimes requires neck turning and, even though it may not be the neck tension I want for the finished round, it does at least ensure even neck tension over the test set.
I select a powder charge about 10% above the lowest listed in the reloading manual for the powder I've chosen and load five rounds. I load another five rounds with that powder, increasing the load by about 1% for each five round set, but never loading beyond the max. listed in the manual.
My first test sets have bullets seated .020 off the lands.
I shoot a ladder test with those rounds, stopping if there is any indication of high pressures.
Using the ladder test data, I select the best three load results and work those into a second ladder test where the load variances are .003 grains (e.g. first ladder test 43.5, 44, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 46.0, 46.5 with best results at 44.5 - 45.5 results in a second ladder test of 44.5, 44.8, 45.1, 45.4) I select the best results from that series and then work with seating depth, starting .010 off the lands and moving back in .003 increments with a focus on MV and group ES. From there I will work on neck tension but that isn't always necessary.

 

[4xforfun]

I don't have enough money to buy $150 worth of powder to test three types of powder. I try to read as much as I can about the powder that seems to dominate the competitive shooter circles and start with one of those.
Then I select the bullet, matched to the twist of my barrel, that I want to try. I make the case adjustments (neck clearance, etc.) so that all the brass is as close to identical as possible. That sometimes requires neck turning and, even though it may not be the neck tension I want for the finished round, it does at least ensure even neck tension over the test set.
I select a powder charge about 10% above the lowest listed in the reloading manual for the powder I've chosen and load five rounds. I load another five rounds with that powder, increasing the load by about 1% for each five round set, but never loading beyond the max. listed in the manual.
My first test sets have bullets seated .020 off the lands.
I shoot a ladder test with those rounds, stopping if there is any indication of high pressures.
Using the ladder test data, I select the best three load results and work those into a second ladder test where the load variances are .003 grains (e.g. first ladder test 43.5, 44, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 46.0, 46.5 with best results at 44.5 - 45.5 results in a second ladder test of 44.5, 44.8, 45.1, 45.4) I select the best results from that series and then work with seating depth, starting .010 off the lands and moving back in .003 increments with a focus on MV and group ES. From there I will work on neck tension but that isn't always necessary.

You test at .003 grain intervels??????.....I don't think so......

Maybe .3, but not .003.

 

[longrangehunterII]

When I begin load development, I always start with a good jam....say +.020 and work my depth shorter if I need to. The reason....I never have to worry about a PSI spike when I adjust seating depth and get into the lands. No suprises, and I like to work in one direction.....away from the lands.

Ok, but depending on what caliber is being used most .22 centerfire rifles perform best with the bullets are 0.010"-0.020" off the rifling. Most 25 caliber and 6mm rifles perform best when the bullet is either just touching or 0.010" off the lands, while large calibers seem to work best then just touching the lands. But this rule is not "Carved in Stone" since each rifle is unique, but instead a generally reliable guide for seating depth. Some rifles that don't seem to respond to minor changes, a reloader shouldn't hesitate to increase the amount of "Bullet Jump", you may find it beneficial? But then again some may find they can't even reach the lands because the magazine box length wont allow them to, unless they single load only.

But since this is a public forum I never know whom might read a post and their level of experience, so I tend to stay on the safe side of the do's and don'ts of reloading to avoid a pressure spike in the first place when someone is working from a reloading manual.

 

[4xforfun]

Ok, but depending on what caliber is being used most .22 centerfire rifles perform best with the bullets are 0.010"-0.020" off the rifling. Most 25 caliber and 6mm rifles perform best when the bullet is either just touching or 0.010" off the lands, while large calibers seem to work best then just touching the lands. But this rule is not "Carved in Stone" since each rifle is unique, but instead a generally reliable guide for seating depth. Some rifles that don't seem to respond to minor changes, a reloader shouldn't hesitate to increase the amount of "Bullet Jump", you may find it beneficial? But then again some may find they can't even reach the lands because the magazine box length wont allow them to, unless they single load only.

But since this is a public forum I never know whom might read a post and their level of experience, so I tend to stay on the safe side of the do's and don'ts of reloading to avoid a pressure spike in the first place when someone is working from a reloading manual.

First off, if you work up the load while into the lands, you won't ever have a spike. The only time you will have a "spike" is if you are maxed out jumping the bullet and decide to jam them without backing off the charge. I always shoot for the upper node, so I am usualy near max. Like I said, if you do your initial load workup with the bullet jammed, you will never have a suprise and you only need to work one way if things arn't' shooting.

Also, I have never had ANY gun shoot better off the lands.....always 10-20 thou in. I shoot 1000/600 benchrest and LR hunting/steel, so everything I shoot are long and heavy for caliber. 338 cal 300 grainers, 230, 215, 210, and 200 grain 30 cal. 180-7mm, 140 6.5, and 105-108 6mm's. Smaller, lighter bullets may very well shoot better with a little jump, but I NEVER shoot/load em, so I can't say

 

[Mikecr]

I basically do Berger's seating depth test first, while fire-forming brass.
Then, with coarse seating chosen, I move to powder with ladder testing.
Then, with powder confirmed in group shooting, I tweak(fine adj) the seating to shape grouping.

Then I decide if I need to go to another powder or not.

My reasoning for seating first is that it's affects are independent of velocity. That is, best seating, in a coarse sense, is just that at any velocity. Also, Ladders look a lot better when shot at a better seating than at worse seating.
Folks who coarse adjust seating last really should go back and re-shoot their ladders. They might have missed something better.

 

[FearNoWind]

You test at .003 grain intervels??????.....I don't think so......
Maybe .3, but not .003.

Thanks for catching that .... those typo's can sneak in there sometimes.
Trouble is that if they're not caught in time there's no way to come back and edit the data cuz the man in charge shuts down the edit feature for the post pretty quickly.

 

[longrangehunterII]

First off, if you work up the load while into the lands, you won't ever have a spike. The only time you will have a "spike" is if you are maxed out jumping the bullet and decide to jam them without backing off the charge. I always shoot for the upper node, so I am usualy near max. Like I said, if you do your initial load workup with the bullet jammed, you will never have a suprise and you only need to work one way if things arn't' shooting.

Also, I have never had ANY gun shoot better off the lands.....always 10-20 thou in. I shoot 1000/600 benchrest and LR hunting/steel, so everything I shoot are long and heavy for caliber. 338 cal 300 grainers, 230, 215, 210, and 200 grain 30 cal. 180-7mm, 140 6.5, and 105-108 6mm's. Smaller, lighter bullets may very well shoot better with a little jump, but I NEVER shoot/load em, so I can't say

Hey that's cool you shoot BR, I respect that. Most if not all the tools we have today had been developed by and/or for BR Shooters. But BR Rifles and Shooting is slightly different then your average magazine fed bolt action hunting rifle.

Yeah, most if not all the Bench Rest Shooter's use ammo that has bullets seated into the lands. With that said as much as BR techniques can be applied to reloading. Bullets jammed into the lands with very little neck tension, at max levels, and tight neck chambers, don't really work so well in a magazine fed hunting rifle or at a Tactical Match where rounds will need to be removed from the chamber without having to be fired first. Hunting guns and the ammo that goes in them can't afford to have a bullet stuck in the chamber and gun powder all in the action out in the field.

Like the vast majority of people that reloader I've found countless loads that will shoot bug holes seated off the lands, and I've only found one instance that I "always" need to jam the bullet into the lands, while fire forming AI loads and Wildcats.

But then again you wont see anybody cleaning their gun between stages at a Tactical Match either, even though they may shoot well over a hundred rounds during a single day unlike you BR Guys.

 

[DocB]

I basically do Berger's seating depth test first, while fire-forming brass.

Hey Mikecr, where do I find Berger's seating depth test, on their website or book?

Thanks, Doc

 

[davkrat]

Agree on in to or tight to the lands loading not being ideal for hunting ammo. Deer hunting in a snow storm a few years back I chambered a round that had gotten some moisture on it. Must have been just wet enough to stick the .005" off the lands bullet. Out came the case and 40 some odd grains of H4831 went flying all through the action. I stood there shivering in the cold with a .270 Win and a 130 grain Ballistic Tip stuck in it's throat. Not going to ever let that happen again.

 

[4xforfun]

Agree on in to or tight to the lands loading not being ideal for hunting ammo. Deer hunting in a snow storm a few years back I chambered a round that had gotten some moisture on it. Must have been just wet enough to stick the .005" off the lands bullet. Out came the case and 40 some odd grains of H4831 went flying all through the action. I stood there shivering in the cold with a .270 Win and a 130 grain Ballistic Tip stuck in it's throat. Not going to ever let that happen again.

I gotta admit...it's happend to me MORE than once...... I guess I should qualify my earlier statements......IF it is a hunting gun, and IF there isn't a big drop off in accuracy....I sometimes back the bullet up .010 to avoid this from happining. Take one of my 300 wbys....custom on a rem 700...I used to load some of my rounds to the lands and some to fit the mag....big PITA!!! Did it for 15 years. After some LR tests I now load all to mag length. There was only about a 2" difference at 1000 yards. And the difference is HUGE between the two OAL's.

As far as the "edit" button......why is that? On other fourms I can edit my poasts for as long as they are up. Here, you only have a couple of hours to correct things before you are locked out. I can't count the number of times I found mistakes and couldn't do anything about them. There should be a way to "fix the system" so as to allow an edit past a couple of hours.