Possible excessive shoulder set back with new Redding Premium die

[Mram10us]

To all reading this and F. Guffeys postings, at the bottom of the page is a "Report" link where you can tell the management here why F. Guffey should be banned. F. Guffey trashes every forum he finds and is allowed to post in and badly needs to be removed.

I don't understand him, but i won't report a guy for sounding ....different. At least he isn't name calling

 

[25WSM]

Just says we're all stupid and don't understand anything. I've got 40 grit sandpaper less abrasive.
Shep

 

[GLTaylor]

I'm not extremely computer literate, but somewhere here used to be an "ignore" button of some kind.....

 

[Rich Coyle]

He is the first one for me to put on "ignore".

 

[GLTaylor]

How do you do the "ignore" thing?

 

[bigedp51]

Thanks for all the replies. While this session may not seem like it but this is not my first rodeo. I've got a competition shellholder kit. And understand how to get the shoulder set back to where I want. This was more of a matter of me not expecting the shoulder to set back as much as it did with the die set per instructions. I bone headed and ran them all through (using a standard shellholder) instead of measuring the first and adjusting. I just didn't think I would set back that far. So my main question is whether the brass will be compromised firing it with that much head space.

I have had brand new cases that were .009 shorter than a GO gauge, meaning .010 to .011 shorter than the chamber headspace. One thing to remember is with most standard cartridge cases the SAAMI lists headspace as Min and Max with .010 between the two.

How much if any the cases will stretch and thin in the base web area depends on their construction and brass hardness. As stated in one of the above postings you can seat the bullets long and jam them to hold the case against the bolt face or use the false shoulder method to do the same.

Below is a British .303 cartridge being fired at the max military headspace of .074 and a rim thickness of .058.
This creates .016 head clearance or "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And these type cases can only be reloaded 2 or 3 times before you have a case head separation.

Below these .308 cases were fired in a new Savage rifle with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. Meaning the die was not set up for minimum shoulder bump and the shoulder were set back the maximum amount per the dies instructions.

On the bottom chart, you can see some of the cases failed after being reloaded 11 times and some lasted over 20 reloadings. Please note at which firing the cases stretched for the first time. And this is due to case construction, meaning brass thickness and hardness in the base.

I fired my cases that were .009 shorter than a GO gauge without jam or a false shoulder and the cases did not stretch and thin. "BUT" this does not mean "YOUR" cases will not stretch and thin.

Below I use a RCBS case mastering gauge to measure case wall thickness and any stretching and thinning.

Below this thin Winchester .303 British case stretched and thinned .009 on its first firing, And a Prvi Partizan case that was .010 thicker in the base did not stretch at all. And both cartridges were factory loaded ammunition and not reloads.

 

[bigedp51]

How do you do the "ignore" thing?

You do not want to set F. Guffey on your ignore list, you want to have him banned. That way "NO ONE" has to read his insulting garbage postings, and this was done in many other forums.

 

[jdyoung]

You do not want to set F. Guffey on your ignore list, you want to have him banned. That way "NO ONE" has to read his insulting garbage postings, and this was done in many other forums.

Thought about the "Ignore" button...……...b-u-t , with all this Corona19 boredom, I just can't get upset with a guy that posts -

You can not Googler for an answer.

 

[bigedp51]

How to check how much shorter the case is vs chamber headspace. "OR" how to make the cheap bastards headspace gauge.

1. Take a new or resized case and measure from the case mouth to the base of the case and write it down.

2. Now just using your fingers start a fire spent primer into the primer pocket.

3. Now take the case and fully chamber it letting the bolt face seat the fired primer.

4. remove the case and measure from the case mouth to the base of the primer and write it down.

5. Now subtract the first case measurement from the second. This will be your head clearance or the air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. Or how much shorter the case shoulder location is than chamber headspace. If your die is adjusted for .002 shoulder bump your cases should also have approximately .002 head clearance. This can vary with brass hardness and brass spring back after sizing but I think this is a better method than checking bolt closing resistance or feel.

 

[jdyoung]

How to check how much shorter the case is vs chamber headspace. "OR" how to make the cheap bastards headspace gauge.

1. Take a new or resized case and measure from the case mouth to the base of the case and write it down.

2. Now just using your fingers start a fire spent primer into the primer pocket.

3. Now take the case and fully chamber it letting the bolt face seat the fired primer.

4. remove the case and measure from the case mouth to the base of the primer and write it down.

5. Now subtract the first case measurement from the second. This will be your head clearance or the air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. Or how much shorter the case shoulder location is than chamber headspace. If your die is adjusted for .002 shoulder bump your cases should also have approximately .002 head clearance. This can vary with brass hardness and brass spring back after sizing but I think this is a better method than checking bolt closing resistance or feel.

Now that is ……...I'm feeling so stupid , I'm speechless...…...I've been using the "bolt closing resistance or feel " method . but this is great.
Thank YOU !!!
Now I just gotta remember to put that "cheap bastard" case where I can find it.

 

[25WSM]

Just don't use a cratered primer. I personally use a live primer to do this because they fit tighter. I'm not to worried about it firing because I take the firing group out of the bolt when doing it anyway. That's a nice post for guys to use to see how short your brass is before you fire them. Then if you see your brass is way short you can long seat a bullet for the first firings to get them to chamber length. This isn't normally a problem with modern firearms but I've seen so many surplus rifles so far from spec it's scary.
Shep

 

[bigedp51]

Now that is ……...I'm feeling so stupid , I'm speechless...…...I've been using the "bolt closing resistance or feel " method . but this is great.
Thank YOU !!!
Now I just gotta remember to put that "cheap bastard" case where I can find it.

On a rimmed case if you add the rim thickness to your head clearance you will have your rifles actual headspace.

On lower pressure cartridges like the 30-30 at the max pressure of 43,000 psi your primers will always protrude. This is because the chamber pressure is not high enough to push the case back against the bolt face. On my Winchester 94 30-30 my primers depending rim thickness protrude .004 to .006 with factory loaded ammunition.

 

[bigedp51]

Just don't use a cratered primer. I personally use a live primer to do this because they fit tighter. I'm not to worried about it firing because I take the firing group out of the bolt when doing it anyway. That's a nice post for guys to use to see how short your brass is before you fire them. Then if you see your brass is way short you can long seat a bullet for the first firings to get them to chamber length. This isn't normally a problem with modern firearms but I've seen so many surplus rifles so far from spec it's scary.
Shep

Below the GO and NO-GO gauges are used to setup a new rifle headspace. And after the NO-GO gauge you are allowed .007 bolt setback or bolt lug wear. Meaning max headspace is not the end of the world and you just raise the die and push the shoulder back less.

Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:

GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gauge, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI's maximum specifications. The GO gauge is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gauge is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.

NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gauge, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gauge. The NO-GO gauge is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.

FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gauge, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI's specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gauges are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safet
Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:


Below I collected British .303 Enfield rifles and they have chambers larger in diameter and longer to the shoulder location than American SAAMI standards. The removable bolt heads made it easy to change the rifles headspace. The military headspace settings are .064 minimum and .074 maximum, and even at .084 headspace setting I did not have any case head separations. BUT this depends on how thick the case is in the base web area.

Below a new .303 British case in a Wilson case gauge and shows how short the shoulder location is on new unfired cases.

Below a fired case in the Wilson gauge and the case is resting on its shoulder in the gauge. This is how much further forward the shoulder of the chamber is than American SAAMI standards and why sizing dies do not match the actual chamber dimensions.

 

[Mram10us]

Below the GO and NO-GO gauges are used to setup a new rifle headspace. And after the NO-GO gauge you are allowed .007 bolt setback or bolt lug wear. Meaning max headspace is not the end of the world and you just raise the die and push the shoulder back less.

Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:

GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gauge, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI's maximum specifications. The GO gauge is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gauge is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.

NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gauge, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gauge. The NO-GO gauge is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.

FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gauge, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI's specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gauges are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safet
Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:


Below I collected British .303 Enfield rifles and they have chambers larger in diameter and longer to the shoulder location than American SAAMI standards. The removable bolt heads made it easy to change the rifles headspace. The military headspace settings are .064 minimum and .074 maximum, and even at .084 headspace setting I did not have any case head separations. BUT this depends on how thick the case is in the base web area.

Below a new .303 British case in a Wilson case gauge and shows how short the shoulder location is on new unfired cases.

Below a fired case in the Wilson gauge and the case is resting on its shoulder in the gauge. This is how much further forward the shoulder of the chamber is than American SAAMI standards and why sizing dies do not match the actual chamber dimensions.

Where are you getting the .007" from?