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NZ Long Range Hunting
- Thread starter NZ Longranger
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Steve7mm08
Well-Known Member
Hi NZ_Longranger
Great article to read, good shooting too.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind me asking.
Firstly I am using 7MM08 with 140gn accubonds. The scope is a Leupold M4 4.5-14x50. I also use a rangefinder.
1- How far do you think the calibre and bullet will be effective for deer or Tahr sized animals. I was thinking around the 600yd range.
2- If you were starting out again and building a long range rig what specs would you go for? ie calibre, barrell length and components? I am not a fan of big recoil (shooting tends to go to crap)
I live in the South Island and have a trip up to the Kawekas planned so I can have a crack at some sika.
I'll look forward to more of your articles.
Cheers, Steve
Great article to read, good shooting too.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind me asking.
Firstly I am using 7MM08 with 140gn accubonds. The scope is a Leupold M4 4.5-14x50. I also use a rangefinder.
1- How far do you think the calibre and bullet will be effective for deer or Tahr sized animals. I was thinking around the 600yd range.
2- If you were starting out again and building a long range rig what specs would you go for? ie calibre, barrell length and components? I am not a fan of big recoil (shooting tends to go to crap)
I live in the South Island and have a trip up to the Kawekas planned so I can have a crack at some sika.
I'll look forward to more of your articles.
Cheers, Steve
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Brian,
Been shooting the the 7mm/338 Lapua Short this week (we call it the 7mm LSM or 7mm Fatso, I'll post a pic one day and you'll see why) with 24N41. It proved to be a tad faster than H50BMG, with 84gns of 24N41 behind a 180gn Berger giving 65,000 psi, 86.5gns of H50BMG giving 64,500 psi and 87gns of H870 giving 64,100 psi. These were 3 shot averages after a fouler. Pressure also started to climb quickly as you fired more groups, requiring a reduction in powder charge, similar to 20N29. They must be of a similar composition. You need to be careful of these 2 slowest N powders with max loads judging by my experiences. They produce good velocity though.
Steve,
In perfect conditions you might stretch your 7mm-08 load to 600 yards if the accuracy is good enough, you'd need better than 3/4 moa at 600 yards and preferably 1/2 moa.
The wind is what will get you, if you've done all your other calculations right, and a .48 or thereabouts BC at 2800 to 2900 fps will get blown about a fair bit. From the many deer I've seen killed at long range, I'd be limiting myself to 400 yards with that combo. Of course, I've got bigger guns for the long shots!
You'd have to give me some more specs before I could recommend something, like max. all up rifle weight you can manage, depending on how far you're going to carry it. Also, will you use a muzzle brake? When you combine this with how much recoil you can handle, this will give you an idea of what sort of gun will suit you, and what its capabilities will be. Let me know these things and I'll suggest what I would do in your situation.
Greg
Been shooting the the 7mm/338 Lapua Short this week (we call it the 7mm LSM or 7mm Fatso, I'll post a pic one day and you'll see why) with 24N41. It proved to be a tad faster than H50BMG, with 84gns of 24N41 behind a 180gn Berger giving 65,000 psi, 86.5gns of H50BMG giving 64,500 psi and 87gns of H870 giving 64,100 psi. These were 3 shot averages after a fouler. Pressure also started to climb quickly as you fired more groups, requiring a reduction in powder charge, similar to 20N29. They must be of a similar composition. You need to be careful of these 2 slowest N powders with max loads judging by my experiences. They produce good velocity though.
Steve,
In perfect conditions you might stretch your 7mm-08 load to 600 yards if the accuracy is good enough, you'd need better than 3/4 moa at 600 yards and preferably 1/2 moa.
The wind is what will get you, if you've done all your other calculations right, and a .48 or thereabouts BC at 2800 to 2900 fps will get blown about a fair bit. From the many deer I've seen killed at long range, I'd be limiting myself to 400 yards with that combo. Of course, I've got bigger guns for the long shots!
You'd have to give me some more specs before I could recommend something, like max. all up rifle weight you can manage, depending on how far you're going to carry it. Also, will you use a muzzle brake? When you combine this with how much recoil you can handle, this will give you an idea of what sort of gun will suit you, and what its capabilities will be. Let me know these things and I'll suggest what I would do in your situation.
Greg
Steve7mm08
Well-Known Member
Hi Greg
I guess my requirements would be as follows.
- capable of shooting deer/Tahr out to 750yds
- not too heavy, would prefer a hunting type stock rather than strictly tactical- maybe 11 lb all up.
- I have not had any experience with muzzle brakes, if they reduce recoil without any disadvantages I would definitely want one!
-Flexible with Calibre, but would prefer one that is not going to give me a beating
At the end of the day I am not really interested in taking animals over 1000yds (would like to have a go but don't want a 20lb rifle!)
Regards, Steve
I guess my requirements would be as follows.
- capable of shooting deer/Tahr out to 750yds
- not too heavy, would prefer a hunting type stock rather than strictly tactical- maybe 11 lb all up.
- I have not had any experience with muzzle brakes, if they reduce recoil without any disadvantages I would definitely want one!
-Flexible with Calibre, but would prefer one that is not going to give me a beating
At the end of the day I am not really interested in taking animals over 1000yds (would like to have a go but don't want a 20lb rifle!)
Regards, Steve
brianwinzor
Well-Known Member
Greg, Thats great information, and indicates once again how much lot to lot variation plays a part.
My recent tests with H50BMG in my 257W had that powder about at least 1 grain slower burning than the lot of H870 I am using. Yet your results are the reverse.
On the basis of your test with Viht 24N41 being a tad faster burning than H50BMG, I may not bother with it, and just continue with my order of 20N29, and also order the double base Viht N570 which was released recently.
According to one report, Viht N570 is supposed to be slower burning than N170, and similar in burning rate to H50BMG.
A photo of 7mm Fatso would be great. Regards, Brian.
My recent tests with H50BMG in my 257W had that powder about at least 1 grain slower burning than the lot of H870 I am using. Yet your results are the reverse.
On the basis of your test with Viht 24N41 being a tad faster burning than H50BMG, I may not bother with it, and just continue with my order of 20N29, and also order the double base Viht N570 which was released recently.
According to one report, Viht N570 is supposed to be slower burning than N170, and similar in burning rate to H50BMG.
A photo of 7mm Fatso would be great. Regards, Brian.
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Brian,
it depends how you are judging burning rate. If you are comparing velocity achieved versus powder weight then H50BMG appears slower as it takes slightly more powder to equal H870's velocity, but pressure will be slightly higher as well. I measure pressure with a strain gauge setup on an Oehler 43. When you compare charge weight versus pressure, H50BMG is slightly faster than H870. Different lots of H870 can vary quite a bit though, I always chronograph and pressure test when I open a new tin.
Steve,
with an 11 pound all up rifle weight, you can pretty much choose any calibre you wish and recoil won't be a problem if you brake it. If you want to stick with a factory calibre, I would choose the 7mm RUM, especially as Nosler are now making quality 300 RUM brass you can neck down. If you want the hottest 7mm wildcat, Kirby's 7mmAM or another version based on the 338 Lapua case would be it. A 26 to 30" number six or seven contour barrel from one of the top barrel makers would be my choice, depending on your portability requirements. A one in nine twist will stabilise any of the good long-range bullets, but I haven't had much success stabilising the 200 grain Wildcat ULD's in a 9 inch twist to 1000 yards, although others have. I have a one in 8 twist barrel coming to try these ULD's beyond 1000 yards where they should come in to their own. Either a trued Remington action or one of the custom actions if you can afford it. A varmint style stock with a round, slightly wider forend from Macmillan, HS precision, Lone Wolf or one of the other top stock makers. The Leupold Mk4 4.5-14x50 you already have will work fine out to 1000 yards.
These are just my suggestions, but the big 7mm's have the best compromise of ballistics, manageable recoil and killing power for rifles about the 10 pound mark.
Greg
it depends how you are judging burning rate. If you are comparing velocity achieved versus powder weight then H50BMG appears slower as it takes slightly more powder to equal H870's velocity, but pressure will be slightly higher as well. I measure pressure with a strain gauge setup on an Oehler 43. When you compare charge weight versus pressure, H50BMG is slightly faster than H870. Different lots of H870 can vary quite a bit though, I always chronograph and pressure test when I open a new tin.
Steve,
with an 11 pound all up rifle weight, you can pretty much choose any calibre you wish and recoil won't be a problem if you brake it. If you want to stick with a factory calibre, I would choose the 7mm RUM, especially as Nosler are now making quality 300 RUM brass you can neck down. If you want the hottest 7mm wildcat, Kirby's 7mmAM or another version based on the 338 Lapua case would be it. A 26 to 30" number six or seven contour barrel from one of the top barrel makers would be my choice, depending on your portability requirements. A one in nine twist will stabilise any of the good long-range bullets, but I haven't had much success stabilising the 200 grain Wildcat ULD's in a 9 inch twist to 1000 yards, although others have. I have a one in 8 twist barrel coming to try these ULD's beyond 1000 yards where they should come in to their own. Either a trued Remington action or one of the custom actions if you can afford it. A varmint style stock with a round, slightly wider forend from Macmillan, HS precision, Lone Wolf or one of the other top stock makers. The Leupold Mk4 4.5-14x50 you already have will work fine out to 1000 yards.
These are just my suggestions, but the big 7mm's have the best compromise of ballistics, manageable recoil and killing power for rifles about the 10 pound mark.
Greg
Steve7mm08
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that info Greg, very useful. Have you done much shooting with the 7mm RUM?, there certainly is a good range of projectiles in 7MM calibres. Who would be a good gunsmith to use to build such a rifle?, are muzzle brakes custom made for each rifle?
This long range stuff is all new to me. Only ten years ago I thought 150yds was a long shot, now 300 - 350yd shots are bread and butter. It would be interesting to push it a bit further.
I suppose the extra weight of a 10-11 lb rifle plus the muzzle brake and decent recoil pad would make the recoil bearable.
Rgds, Steve
This long range stuff is all new to me. Only ten years ago I thought 150yds was a long shot, now 300 - 350yd shots are bread and butter. It would be interesting to push it a bit further.
I suppose the extra weight of a 10-11 lb rifle plus the muzzle brake and decent recoil pad would make the recoil bearable.
Rgds, Steve
brianwinzor
Well-Known Member
Greg, I try and assess powder burning rate on the weight of powder burned at what I consider maximum pressure.
I would certainly like to own a model 43 chronograph and strain guage to make decision making more black or white. However, after 40 years of reloading I do believe I have become adept at estimating the pressure signs.
I admit that so far I have only tested the 2 powders side by side in my 257W with the 156 grain bullet, and further testing with different bullet weights, and in different cases may reverse the earlier result.
I have also found that H870 produces more velocity than H50BMG for equal amounts of powder, but like many other ball powders the apparent maximum pressure has shifted constantly depending on temperature at the time.
The maximum load of H50BMG has so far consistently produced maximum pressure with the same load irrespective of temperature, and has also produced remarkably consistent velocities with extreme spreads being always under 20fps.
I will be interested to hear how your 7mm Fatso goes with the 200 grain Wildcats once the 8 twist barrel arrives. Brian.
I would certainly like to own a model 43 chronograph and strain guage to make decision making more black or white. However, after 40 years of reloading I do believe I have become adept at estimating the pressure signs.
I admit that so far I have only tested the 2 powders side by side in my 257W with the 156 grain bullet, and further testing with different bullet weights, and in different cases may reverse the earlier result.
I have also found that H870 produces more velocity than H50BMG for equal amounts of powder, but like many other ball powders the apparent maximum pressure has shifted constantly depending on temperature at the time.
The maximum load of H50BMG has so far consistently produced maximum pressure with the same load irrespective of temperature, and has also produced remarkably consistent velocities with extreme spreads being always under 20fps.
I will be interested to hear how your 7mm Fatso goes with the 200 grain Wildcats once the 8 twist barrel arrives. Brian.
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Brian,
You're 100% right about ball powders varying with temperature and H50BMG being incredibly temperature stable. That is why the similar 2211 has been my favourite powder for a long time now in my big guns. Its one more variable I don't have to worry about when calculating drop making a shot while hunting. I only have to worry about the temperature affect on air density, not on muzzle velocity due to the AR powder series superb insensitivity. Using ball powders I always had an ammo temperature correction I factored in as well. But you can't beat the velocity attainable with the ball powders. I wonder how Kirby finds US869 temperature wise? I seem to remember reading he found some unexpected pressure signs out testing with it one day in the 338AM. That sort of thing used to happen to me all the time when I burnt a lot of H870 long range hunting goats, hot days and accumulated fouling when you're shooting 50 or more rounds a day saw the pressures rise considerably.
Have you tried any 869?
Greg
Steve,
Email me and I'll give you my thoughts for what they're worth.
<u>[email protected]</u>
You're 100% right about ball powders varying with temperature and H50BMG being incredibly temperature stable. That is why the similar 2211 has been my favourite powder for a long time now in my big guns. Its one more variable I don't have to worry about when calculating drop making a shot while hunting. I only have to worry about the temperature affect on air density, not on muzzle velocity due to the AR powder series superb insensitivity. Using ball powders I always had an ammo temperature correction I factored in as well. But you can't beat the velocity attainable with the ball powders. I wonder how Kirby finds US869 temperature wise? I seem to remember reading he found some unexpected pressure signs out testing with it one day in the 338AM. That sort of thing used to happen to me all the time when I burnt a lot of H870 long range hunting goats, hot days and accumulated fouling when you're shooting 50 or more rounds a day saw the pressures rise considerably.
Have you tried any 869?
Greg
Steve,
Email me and I'll give you my thoughts for what they're worth.
<u>[email protected]</u>
brianwinzor
Well-Known Member
Greg, No, I haven't tried HUS869, but would buy some in a heartbeat if I knew someone in Oz had imported it. Hopefully that will occur sooner rather than later.
Are Hodgdon powders available in New Zealand?
Are Hodgdon powders available in New Zealand?
hjl
Well-Known Member
NZ Longranger,
What a great post. Thanks for sharing story & pics.
Really like the look of your suppressors. Unfortunely they are illegal in Australia.
Regards.
hjl
What a great post. Thanks for sharing story & pics.
Really like the look of your suppressors. Unfortunely they are illegal in Australia.
Regards.
hjl
