Newbie needs advice

[bonecollector777]

Fairly new to the reloading game but have learned a lot reading here and from some friends. Working up a load for a new 28 nosler. 175 grain berger elite hunter with retumbo. 1:8 twist. Currently 0.015" off lands. Did a ladder test and saw some promising nodes so started around there. Now I'm here with these 2 groups. 80.5 grains gave me the 3 in the same vertical line with SD of 5 and ES of 10 and grouped right at 1.000" at 100 yards( I know 3 shots isn't much to go off of on SD and ES but that's what I got so far.) 80.4grains gave me the more triangle shaped group with and SD of 10 and ES of 20 and grouped at .800" at 100 yards.

My question is are those acceptable numbers to start playing with seating depth or need to go back and find a better node? As a general rule what do you find acceptable before you start messing with seating depth?

Gun has a heavy sporter barrel but no brake so certainly the shooter trying to tame this beast could be a factor on group size. Gun cooled down 4 minutes between shots.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

do you ever plan on braking it ???

id bet you a 12 pack of your choice, that if you shot the same exact shots at a uniform target that better matches your scopes reticle , that you'd get a tighter group , across the board , just by changing your target alone ,

try and find one online, make , print , draw , steal one that is the perfect shape to match your reticle design at the yardage you are shooting , this is one that i like , take whatever shape you like, stretch and skew it so when you look at it at 100, your cross hair isnt being blocked at all

 

[RegionRat]

When you said you ran a ladder and saw nodes, can you be more specific?

What distance was the test run?

Did shots cluster (vertically)?

Unfortunately, the word "ladder" has been used for many different things and has become ambiguous over the last 20 years. What it used to mean was a test run out at a significant distance, using charge steps to observe the composite vertical shotfall harmonics. The test required distance to expose vertical speed issues as well as harmonic issues.

Any non-linear clusters of shots were then investigated with follow-up group testing and seating depth testing. The benefit of the Audette Ladder test method was to expose the composite of the structural harmonics and internal ballistics harmonics (speed stats) to find the better nodes to further investigate.

If your "ladder" was run too close, then the velocity spreads do not show vertical, and the structural harmonics will also be too difficult to sort.

If you can only tune at short distances, the better methods are closer to OCW and look for point of impact shifts. However, if the groups are huge compared to any shifts, due to the arrow or the Indian, then the results are muddy.

You already mentioned it, but it is worth repeating... that there isn't a point to doing velocity stats on three or five shot samples. Even the group size study is subject to the same problem, where you can get a factor of 2 bigger or smaller in the next trial if you are not lucky.

With respect to advice, I find myself often telling folks to take the chrono data for safety, but not to prioritize it unless the group nodes are identified first.

Many times, the best speed stats may not align with the best target performance. In a carry gun, structural harmonics are stronger than they are in match guns. Once in a while, the SD/ES is kind to you and aligns to the best target, but not always. Up close, you really don't need velocity stats at all. Speed stats do become important out past 600 yards, but they should only be used once the group nodes are found.

At distances where you are well down the trajectory, when you have good target/group performance, your speed stats are going to be at least decent otherwise your vertical spreads would be poor. The corollary is also true with a carry gun, great speed stats with bad groups is cold comfort.

With a carry profile bbl that is meant to go more than 400 yards when required, the Audette Ladder method can save you time and shot count. I would give it a try if you haven't already. It is difficult since you have to be aware of barrel heating, cleaning/fouling, and your own fatigue. But that is true of any shooting with a carry gun in a potent caliber.

 

[bonecollector777]

one thing id like to point out that want me to encourage you to keep looking for a node is that 80.4 & 80.5 are not far enough apart in charge weight to give such different results , in those 2 pictures ,


do you ever plan on braking it ???


id bet you a 12 pack of your choice, that if you shot the same exact shots at a uniform target that better matches your scopes reticle , that you'd get a tighter group , across the board , just by changing your target alone

try and find one online, make , print , draw , steal one that is the perfect shape to match your reticle design at the yardage you are shooting , this is one that i like , take whatever shape you like, stretch and skew it so when you look at it at 100

View attachment 407909

I updated the original pics as I put the wrong one on showing the 80.4 group. Originally showed 80.0 group. Its fixed now.

Thanks for that advice! Pretty simple thing and I didn't ever think of it so I'll give a target with a more precise point of aim a try.

It's my dad's gun and he says he would rather have the kick than the noise so no plans on ever braking it.

As for the group POI being that much different. I'm an idiot and thought trying to work up a load for two different bullets at the same time was a good idea. The 80.4 group was shot a few days ago and a different load with a lighter bullet was shot since so I changed my scope POI to bring the lighter bullet down onto the target. And then I shot the 80.5 this morning. Can see changing my scope for another bullet is a bad idea. But to maybe give some more confidence in my node here is a pic I shot of 80.0, 80.2, and 80.4 three days ago. Similar point of impact just little more open groups on some.

 

[bonecollector777]

As for ladder distance I shot my ladder at 300 yards as I read anything closer you wouldn't be able to see much vertical difference. From 79.8-80.7 in .3 grain increments showed a fairly level vertical dispersion so that's why I played around with 80.3, 80.4, and 80.5 and got this. 80.3 was also a triangle group but about 1.10 inches.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

with the new pics added , id say it looks as if your point of aim was good enough to not call that session a loss ,

maybe do the berger at 80

 

[RegionRat]

As for ladder distance I shot my ladder at 300 yards as I read anything closer you wouldn't be able to see much vertical difference.

Yes, 300 is still really close for what you are doing.

300 yards is a short shot for most average centerfire hunting rigs, and a very short shot for a 28 Nosler.

The other problem with carry guns in potent calibers, is their recoil to weight ratio makes them difficult to shoot accurately. All the more reason not to shoot close since the harmonics versus the errors need to separate for you to be able to see them.

How far you plan on being able to use this rig at most? Eventually you should test at least that far or a little farther to be confident when the time comes.

The Audette Method is best run at 600 or more. Even if that is out past where you plan to hunt, that trajectory at distance helps magnify the harmonics both in terms of the structural ones as well as the ones caused by internal ballistics.

If your dad doesn't plan to pick off shots between brush out past four or five hundred yards, then the rig will be fine doing what you are doing now. If you need to be confident out past 500, then it will mean work.

And yes, try not to take on too many combinations at the same time. Nothing wrong with abandoning a bullet you won't use, but it takes work to know either way.

That advice to run a precision scope for load development was good. Even if it means using a more powerful scope temporarily, it can help save wasted shots. You can then take the best load and run the hunting scope. Messing around too much with the zero during an OCW test isn't wise since your notes and records become more complex and the data is harder to read.

 

[doverpack12]

Your SD and ES look good enough with either. Depending on intended use distance you could stop now with any of those. I'm a big guy and have a 7mm STW unbraked so know and understand how difficult it can be to be perfect every shot and know I didn't influence it. When I do my part my rifle will put a second shot in the first bullet hole so I know when I shoot a 1" group it's me.
I dry fire before each shot until there is zero crosshair movement on target with the drop of the firing pin. Make sure you are square behind the rifle and either rest your chest on the table and lean forward or shoot prone. Do not angle the rifle across diagonally like most L shaped shooting benches are designed. Sit behind the bench not in the cut out.
Assuming your shooting for is good and you can manage the recoil for that many shots. I would play with seating depth. Several triangle groups would indicate to seat longer if you have room without hitting lands or exceeding mag length, then the 2 close 1 out seat deeper.
Probably best to just pick a chard weight (likely best SD and ES) then do a seating depth test. This will let you further explore your best metrics while determining where that particular bullet wants to be seated.
I like the Eric Cortina method of going in 2 thousandth increments and seating on the long end of a seating band 6 thousandths or so wide. Don't be afraid to go pretty deep even though they are bergers.
The Berger seating method usually works but the Cortina method has resulted in better groups by finding a better depth that holds group size for longer

 

[bonecollector777]

@doverpack12 all great advice and actually a lot of what I've been doing (wrong) it looks like. Have been sitting off the side and did notice the recoil was kicking the gun off to the side more often than not. I'll make sure to get a better shooting position these next rounds with a better target.

As for seating depth I'm currently .015" off the lands and pretty much at mag length so I'll have to try deeper and hope I find a seating node before I have to go too deep. I'll try the Eric Cortina method and see how it goes. Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[bonecollector777]

Amazing what a little seating depth change can do for you. Here's a pic of the best 3 shot group of any rifle I've ever shot.

However, I have a mystery that I can't solve. Just two days ago I shot several similar loads as well as loads with a completely different bullet. Not all great groups but a generalized same area POI. All shot off a table with a bag and bipod. All shooting sessions have been similar times of day, similar Temps, really nothing different in conditions or components or shooting position. Targets in same place. Yet today all of my loads were hitting 2-3ish inches higher than two days ago. Great groups and I haven't touched my scope adjustments in over a week. Any idea what in the world would cause that? Faulty scope not holding zero? But still being able to be repeatable POI during one session but different during the next? I can't figure it out. Scope is a brand new Leupold VX5 so i wouldnt think the scope is faulty but everything points to scope. Have checked and double checked scope rings, torque etc. And its all good. Gun is glass bedded and free floated.

 

[338 dude]

Fairly new to the reloading game but have learned a lot reading here and from some friends. Working up a load for a new 28 nosler. 175 grain berger elite hunter with retumbo. 1:8 twist. Currently 0.015" off lands. Did a ladder test and saw some promising nodes so started around there. Now I'm here with these 2 groups. 80.5 grains gave me the 3 in the same vertical line with SD of 5 and ES of 10 and grouped right at 1.000" at 100 yards( I know 3 shots isn't much to go off of on SD and ES but that's what I got so far.) 80.4grains gave me the more triangle shaped group with and SD of 10 and ES of 20 and grouped at .800" at 100 yards.

My question is are those acceptable numbers to start playing with seating depth or need to go back and find a better node? As a general rule what do you find acceptable before you start messing with seating depth?

Gun has a heavy sporter barrel but no brake so certainly the shooter trying to tame this beast could be a factor on group size. Gun cooled down 4 minutes between shots.View attachment 407916View attachment 407903

Try the 80.5 with the horizontal group and adjust seating depth

 

[338 dude]

Amazing what a little seating depth change can do for you. Here's a pic of the best 3 shot group of any rifle I've ever shot.
View attachment 409735

However, I have a mystery that I can't solve. Just two days ago I shot several similar loads as well as loads with a completely different bullet. Not all great groups but a generalized same area POI. All shot off a table with a bag and bipod. All shooting sessions have been similar times of day, similar Temps, really nothing different in conditions or components or shooting position. Targets in same place. Yet today all of my loads were hitting 2-3ish inches higher than two days ago. Great groups and I haven't touched my scope adjustments in over a week. Any idea what in the world would cause that? Faulty scope not holding zero? But still being able to be repeatable POI during one session but different during the next? I can't figure it out. Scope is a brand new Leupold VX5 so i wouldnt think the scope is faulty but everything points to scope. Have checked and double checked scope rings, torque etc. And its all good. Gun is glass bedded and free floated. View attachment 409736

What were your speeds ,what is the temperature ,environmentals will change things such as this.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

next tool to get is a mag speed or a chrono

 

[doverpack12]

Are you loading the bipod (leaning into it) when you shoot the group 2-3" higher?
Both great groups, doing that once can be luck, repeating means you are executing some good shots.
The group impact locations appear to be different lengths. Which can move impact some, this seems a little much though.
What are the grids? I count 7 squares poi change.
Were the turrets on zero and locked out? Turrets can be turned accidentally which is why I like capped or locking. VX5 has locks so should be fine but worth checking they didn't move or resetting to zero before shooting next so you know if they do move.