I also like how Colorado used to have their seasons when we lived there in the 80s. Archery first, muzzleloader second, modern last. I don't know if that is still the way it is but it made sense to me. In Indiana they had muzzleloaders last so by then the deer were spooked and hard to get close to with a traditional muzzleloader.
New Mexico recommends NO use of scopes on muzzleloaders
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WildRose
Well-Known Member
That's a bit overkill I think. Rifled muskets were common in "The Colonies" before The Revolution. In fact, that's largely how we defeated the Brit's since our rifled muskets could shoot accurately at 2-3x the range of the smoothbore Brown Bess British Troops carried.
Muddyboots
Well-Known Member
Muzzleloader seasons started with most states accepting "cap and ball" approach and even some just flintlock. Some states did not even allow conicals and just patched ball. When in-lines came out, sabots and scopes were not allowed for quite some time in many of the states. You still had to shoot patched round ball or possibly conicals. Then sabots and scopes became legal in most states. There are many new in-line designs that could have been addressed to limit performance as separate issue such as using 209 primer, musket caps or #11 caps only. So if a state prohibits scopes, what about muzzleloaders with tritium sights? Fiber optic sights? Can you have a rear sight? Can you have a peep sight? A globe sight? Where is the line of distinction of primitive "iron sights"?
The term primitive used by states to allocate seasons was probably a bad idea since we can't agree on the simple definition of what is a primitive weapon. I can argue sabots were around in 1700's as a wooden shoe for cannon ball for cannons which is where the term sabot comes from BTW.
"Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry responded, "Yeah, to go back to 'primitive weapon,' you'd have to not allow any muzzleloader newer than 1975. It's not a primitive weapon hunt." So now its not a primitive season but a season dedicated to a muzzleloader built before 1975? So how many muzzleloaders are available built before 1975?
So what in hello is this statement?
"Right now, muzzleloaders are shooting out to 800 yards accurately. So you can imagine that closing the distance from 800 to 100 yards is a lot more difficult. Success rates are going to drop."
I wonder what the energy ft-lbs would be at 800 yards? Monday Night Football - C'Mon Man!
This statement is so laughable on so many levels. Shooting versus hunting are two distinctive activities. Another example of don't let facts interfere with what was ALREADY planned. I faced similar issues when bringing the straight wall rifle to MI years ago, the complete lack of understanding of firearms at the DNR level was staggering. Many of these folks are bureaucrats with degrees without any or much understanding of firearms, ballistics, et al.
"This whole extreme long range muzzleloader argument is a red herring," said hunter Steve Miller, who started the Facebook discussion. "Has technology made the modern black powder rifle capable of 300-400 yard shots? In the right hands, I say a few are pulling it off. From my experience, the vast majority of animals are killed 200 and less. I see this argument as a lot of uninformed people willing to sacrifice one set of hunters for their own gain."
This hunter nailed it. The reality is that scopes were going to be prohibited no matter what the facts may be.
Primitive:
: of or relating to the earliest age or period : primeval the primitive church
: closely approximating an early ancestral type : little evolved primitive mammals
: belonging to or characteristic of an early stage of development : crude, rudimentary primitive technology
Slippery Slope:
The term primitive used by states to allocate seasons was probably a bad idea since we can't agree on the simple definition of what is a primitive weapon. I can argue sabots were around in 1700's as a wooden shoe for cannon ball for cannons which is where the term sabot comes from BTW.
"Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry responded, "Yeah, to go back to 'primitive weapon,' you'd have to not allow any muzzleloader newer than 1975. It's not a primitive weapon hunt." So now its not a primitive season but a season dedicated to a muzzleloader built before 1975? So how many muzzleloaders are available built before 1975?
So what in hello is this statement?
"Right now, muzzleloaders are shooting out to 800 yards accurately. So you can imagine that closing the distance from 800 to 100 yards is a lot more difficult. Success rates are going to drop."
I wonder what the energy ft-lbs would be at 800 yards? Monday Night Football - C'Mon Man!
This statement is so laughable on so many levels. Shooting versus hunting are two distinctive activities. Another example of don't let facts interfere with what was ALREADY planned. I faced similar issues when bringing the straight wall rifle to MI years ago, the complete lack of understanding of firearms at the DNR level was staggering. Many of these folks are bureaucrats with degrees without any or much understanding of firearms, ballistics, et al.
"This whole extreme long range muzzleloader argument is a red herring," said hunter Steve Miller, who started the Facebook discussion. "Has technology made the modern black powder rifle capable of 300-400 yard shots? In the right hands, I say a few are pulling it off. From my experience, the vast majority of animals are killed 200 and less. I see this argument as a lot of uninformed people willing to sacrifice one set of hunters for their own gain."
This hunter nailed it. The reality is that scopes were going to be prohibited no matter what the facts may be.
Primitive:
: of or relating to the earliest age or period : primeval the primitive church
: closely approximating an early ancestral type : little evolved primitive mammals
: belonging to or characteristic of an early stage of development : crude, rudimentary primitive technology
Slippery Slope:
- A tricky precarious situation, especially one that leads gradually but inexorably to disaster.
- A chain of events that, once initiated, cannot be halted; especially one in which the final outcome is undesirable or precarious.
- An argument that follows a chain of events or causes and effects to some conclusion.
Harry Knutz
Well-Known Member
More Bolshevitch from the Left.
So put the scoped muzzleloaders with the rifle season and the keep the scopeless muzzleloaders in the muzzleloader season. The next thing they'll go after is the long range scopes. Game & fish need to figure out seasons and change them instead of restricting equipment!
I do agree given the relation. It was meant to be to show the idiocy in all of this. It's all relative. The terms are as much political as anything. I agree with you on their rifles ability but I disagree these arms are primitive in the breth of the history of using weapons to take game. In fact its barely a blip on the map.
But this is steering away from the main point. I apologize for that. My point being it's all politics not facts and absolutely disingenuous. If NM DNR wanted to be truthful and likely have more of people's trust they should have told the truth.
The default is to lie and manipulate. That is done when you know your intent is something you believe they will not accept or find less than honorable. Let's face it its generally accepted norm that all gov agencies are self serving using the states residents dollars for their own personal benefit.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Personally I think it's fair to go back to what was available in ML's when MC rifles started really gaining traction during the civil war era.
That would include cap and ball ML's with scopes.
I have an issue with the modern smokeless ML's being included with or without optics. Smokeless powder didn't come along for about 30 years after that era.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Likely it's an issue where the powers at be already had their minds made up and now they are attempting to justify it because of pushback.
Troutslayer2
Well-Known Member
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I'm willing to bet that many of us here, using a modern muzzleloader, could double or triple the effective range of Joe average hunter with his scoped 30-06. It's just too easy to conform to the rules while avoiding the intent of these seasons. I like how we did it in Montana, side lock, open sights, no breech loading, bullet restrictions. It's not supposed to be as easy and if you don't like it then hunt the rifle season or get rid of muzzleloader seasons all together.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
We here are the top 1% of hunters when it comes to range if you look at surveys of the distances most hunters claim to have made their kills.
Give any of us a Colonial Era rifled musket and I'd wager over half of us would get proficient with them to at least 400yds.
We however are not the guys and gals these rule makers have in mind.
New and more regulations don't fix anything but some politicians pocketbooks! Loosing elk or deer to scopes extending muzzleloaders range is ludicrous. Once they see how easy a new law was to turn sportsman against sportsman they will say umm you boys with smokeless muzzleloaders are too successful!!!! No more smokeless wait sights can be attached to regular rifles too! It's a never ending cycle!!!!!! Just my opinion. Wake Up America!!!!!!
Muddyboots
Well-Known Member
^^^^^^^
It is a slippery slope for sure, that's the crummy part. once they pass one, keep em coming, watch out! I love politics.
The other crummy part is we finally got drawn for NM Mulie muzzle loader season this year that's at the end of this month. I bought a .45 cal CVA Paramount pro with a scope. My buddy had his REM 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader rebarreld to a Brux .45 cal. for the NM deer hunts too lol and if we ever get drawn for the Trophy Elk hunt here in AZ. Well at least we'll get to use them 1 year haha. I guess the positive is the BH209 BP substitute is crazy ridiculous expensive now and hard to find. I'm good on GOEX FF/FFF at least.
I'd rather kill with my Flintlocks shooting FFF GOEX W/ PRB's anyways, but will use my most effective weapon within the law typically. This year Sabots and scopes, next year PRB's and iron sights (If drawn).
The other crummy part is we finally got drawn for NM Mulie muzzle loader season this year that's at the end of this month. I bought a .45 cal CVA Paramount pro with a scope. My buddy had his REM 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader rebarreld to a Brux .45 cal. for the NM deer hunts too lol and if we ever get drawn for the Trophy Elk hunt here in AZ. Well at least we'll get to use them 1 year haha. I guess the positive is the BH209 BP substitute is crazy ridiculous expensive now and hard to find. I'm good on GOEX FF/FFF at least.
I'd rather kill with my Flintlocks shooting FFF GOEX W/ PRB's anyways, but will use my most effective weapon within the law typically. This year Sabots and scopes, next year PRB's and iron sights (If drawn).
