New Mexico bans the use of scopes

[PBramble]

So you're saying it'll limit distance?

I think he's alluding to what I posted earlier. There's just going to be more bad shots and wounded animals. Never underestimate the tenacity of someone who has waited and paid a lot of money to draw a tag and travel to hunt. They're going to shoot at an animal if they see it, even if it's an unlikely good shot.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I think he's alluding to what I posted earlier. There's just going to be more bad shots and wounded animals. Never underestimate the tenacity of someone who has waited and paid a lot of money to draw a tag and travel to hunt. They're going to shoot at an animal if they see it, even if it's an unlikely good shot.

You can always say that about everything. If a rifle can shoot 200, someone will try 400. If a rifle can shoot 700, someone will try 1000. If a bow can shoot 50, someone will try 80, etc etc. the difference in this situation is that the muzzle loader will go from shooting 300-400 and people trying 500-600 to 100 and people trying 200-300. I have an open sight Colorado legal rifle and it's everything I can do to hit a milk jug at 100. Hell, I can barely see it with the front post covering it!

 

[LRNut]

This ....

It gets even worse with long range hunting beyond 1000 yards

African "PH's and Alaskan guides can get pretty rabid and venomous in their attacks on long range hunters ... Even for mentioning it, they get all insane in the brain, simply because they have no experience, no proper gear (cartridges/rifles/optics etc) or even the remotest clue how it's done ... & because THEY self handicapped themselves, then surely nobody else should be allowed to do it ....

Banning a scope for hunting use & using "primitive" as an excuse is laughable..

You want primitive, then lash a chipped rock to a stick and walk to the hunting grounds ... Leave that $60k truck and $30k jetboat, SxS or Argo at home ...

"Some" hunters .. ARE our enemies ......

The reason they are rabid is because they have seen too many lost animals. Honestly, there is a reason LR hunting (1000 yards) isn't practiced in AK - if you wound it, your hunt is over - that is the law, and if you think guides in Alaska will brush that under the rug, you haven't hunted there much. I have hunted Africa more times than most people and LR shooting, unless you are shooting baboons in Namibia, is not generally an option. But go ahead, it is your TF and quota. My longest shot in Africa was on a baboon at 440 yards; I also shot a Cape buffalo at 308 yards after a long day crawling over a flood plain in Kigosi - my PH wasn't exactly thrilled.

I was on an elk hunt this year in NM, muzzle in unit 15. In camp there were some guys who had a tag for 16 (centerfire rifle). The shooter showed me his LR rifle, how it was a hammer, etc. He wounded an elk at 525 or 575 (can't remember exactly but it was over 500).

I shoot every day at gongs with a goal of hitting a 10" vital area. 620 and closer is practically a gimme no matter what the wind is doing. 760 is above 90% even with a 3 MOA wind hold (I am shooting 28N, 300 RUM, .338 Edge, and .338 Lapua). But 910 and 1056? There are too many times when I am fooled by the wind to say that anyone can shoot that far and make a perfect wind call every time. In CO just hold your wind meter in the air - it is frequently changing enough during the TOF of the bullet to increase your odds of a bad wind call substantially. Even when it appears calm in the morning, once in a while it fools me - it is blowing - do the math on how accurate your wind call must be, taking into account even a 1/2 MOA rifle only has 2.5" of allowable wind call error (that means a wind call that is accurate to within 1/2 mph) at 1000 yards before you risk missing. I am pretty good at wind calling; if I wasn't my hit rate would not be that high at 765. But at 1000 yards your TOF is longer, your group size is getting bigger, and your wind call must be multiples better than it is at closer ranges.

At some point, math and physics overwhelm your skill.

 

[Willoughby]

MT requires round ball, iron sights and sidelock MLS cap or flint only , still better than not having a ml season

 

[CMP70306]

So you're saying it'll limit distance?

It would limit a lot of shots not just those at distance. Just look at the below picture, these bison were at 100 yards, it is a chip shot with any kind of optic and normally an easy shot with irons but due to the fading light I couldn't see my front sight well enough to comfortably take the shot with black sights on a dark brown bison. Wasn't a big deal then as I always had the next day and worst case I could use my scoped Win Mag instead of the Sharps.

However if that was the last day of my hunt, I was holding a tag I waited years for and had spent several thousand dollars to get to that moment then I'm going to aim to the best of my ability, pull the trigger and hope that my shot hits its mark as there is no mulligan.

You can always say that about everything. If a rifle can shoot 200, someone will try 400. If a rifle can shoot 700, someone will try 1000. If a bow can shoot 50, someone will try 80, etc etc. the difference in this situation is that the muzzle loader will go from shooting 300-400 and people trying 500-600 to 100 and people trying 200-300. I have an open sight Colorado legal rifle and it's everything I can do to hit a milk jug at 100. Hell, I can barely see it with the front post covering it!

That's because your sights are probably general purpose with a giant fiber optic front sight and a two dot rear, fine for general close range stuff in lower light but certainly not designed for longer range accuracy. Anybody who intends to shoot at range with irons is not going to use those types of sights and would probably go with a globe front with various inserts as well as an adjustable rear tang.

 

[Ucsdryder]

It would limit a lot of shots not just those at distance. Just look at the below picture, these bison were at 100 yards, it is a chip shot with any kind of optic and normally an easy shot with irons but due to the fading light I couldn't see my front sight well enough to comfortably take the shot with black sights on a dark brown bison. Wasn't a big deal then as I always had the next day and worst case I could use my scoped Win Mag instead of the Sharps.

However if that was the last day of my hunt, I was holding a tag I waited years for and had spent several thousand dollars to get to that moment then I'm going to aim to the best of my ability, pull the trigger and hope that my shot hits its mark as there is no mulligan.

View attachment 406951


That's because your sights are probably general purpose with a giant fiber optic front sight and a two dot rear, fine for general close range stuff in lower light but certainly not designed for longer range accuracy. Anybody who intends to shoot at range with irons is not going to use those types of sights and would probably go with a globe front with various inserts as well as an adjustable rear tang.

All goood points. Not a lot of primitive weapons had fiber optics so I agree there as well!

 

[CMP70306]

All goood points. Not a lot of primitive weapons had fiber optics so I agree there as well!

But they did have long range adjustable sights in the 1800s, just look at the guys shooting BPCR and how far they can hit with nothing but heavy slow lead bullets, globe front and vernier tang sights shooting actual black powder. They are single shot rifles but for all intents and purposes they are less advanced than a modern inline shooting pellets or BH209.

 

[Ucsdryder]

But they did have long range adjustable sights in the 1800s, just look at the guys shooting BPCR and how far they can hit with nothing but heavy slow lead bullets, globe front and vernier tang sights shooting actual black powder. They are single shot rifles but for all intents and purposes they are less advanced than a modern inline shooting pellets or BH209.

Still more primitive than a 4-16 scope. Don't see your point. Not to mention the fact that, very few people hunting are going to have a fancy globe/peep setup. The overwhelming majority, will have a post and dove tail. Long story short, this will continue to limit ranges, the goal of the new law. There's always rifle season for those that don't want to use open sights on their ML.

 

[CMP70306]

Still more primitive than a 4-16 scope. Don't see your point. Not to mention the fact that, very few people hunting are going to have a fancy globe/peep setup. The overwhelming majority, will have a post and dove tail. Long story short, this will continue to limit ranges, the goal of the new law. There's always rifle season for those that don't want to use open sights on their ML.

The majority of muzzleloader hunters aren't shooting over 200 yards even with a scope and if they aren't a good enough shot to go past 200 with a scoped inline how bad will it be, even at close range, when you take away the scope?

But the guys that are already shooting several hundred yards are going to continue to do so with iron sights. It may be at a somewhat lesser range with less opportunities but they will still be significantly more effective than the average hunter with a scoped inline.

 

[Spikefrb]

Thinking there is more to it. They claim the muzzleloaders are too successful. They either reduce the number of tags or reduce the chances of harvesting an animal. Money won another one. They get the revenue and have more elk.

Have to wonder how the 17,000 muzzleloader hunters are going to react?
(See article mentioning the number of hunters)

I found this comment from the article lame:
"Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders. Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots."

There are many older shooters, including me, that cannot focus on iron sights especially the rear sight. Unless there is some sort of accommodation then I won't be doing it anymore. There is some possible relief found in the article:
"Jesse Deubel, executive director of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation, said the group supports the prohibition of scopes on muzzleloaders. He said the NMWF focuses on providing more hunting opportunity for resident hunters. Deubel noted that the game department director has authority to provide reasonable accommodation to hunters with documented vision issues." Time will tell.

As I understand this, scopes will only be bannen during the muzzle-loader season. You are still allowed to use a scoped muzzle-loader during the "any legal weapon" season.

 

[Ucsdryder]

The majority of muzzleloader hunters aren't shooting over 200 yards even with a scope and if they aren't a good enough shot to go past 200 with a scoped inline how bad will it be, even at close range, when you take away the scope?

But the guys that are already shooting several hundred yards are going to continue to do so with iron sights. It may be at a somewhat lesser range with less opportunities but they will still be significantly more effective than the average hunter with a scoped inline.

Are you from the west? Specifically New Mexico? I think you're way off thinking that guys in the west are limiting themselves to 200 yard with scopes. WAY OFF…

 

[Ucsdryder]

The majority of muzzleloader hunters aren't shooting over 200 yards even with a scope and if they aren't a good enough shot to go past 200 with a scoped inline how bad will it be, even at close range, when you take away the scope?

But the guys that are already shooting several hundred yards are going to continue to do so with iron sights. It may be at a somewhat lesser range with less opportunities but they will still be significantly more effective than the average hunter with a scoped inline.

I put up a poll on RS because there are a lot of western hunters on there. There are only 15 votes so far, but you might take a look and watch the poll. I think often eastern hunters, have a vision of effective distances and ranges that don't correlate to western hunters. Not saying one is better or worse but out west I think guys really push the limits of their ability and equipment.

Max range with scope out west?

What’s your max range with inline, scoped muzzle loaders out west? Mule deer, elk, and antelope? I’m talking ideal conditions.

www.rokslide.com

 

[CMP70306]

I put up a poll on RS because there are a lot of western hunters on there. There are only 15 votes so far, but you might take a look and watch the poll. I think often eastern hunters, have a vision of effective distances and ranges that don't correlate to western hunters. Not saying one is better or worse but out west I think guys really push the limits of their ability and equipment.

Max range with scope out west?

What’s your max range with inline, scoped muzzle loaders out west? Mule deer, elk, and antelope? I’m talking ideal conditions.

www.rokslide.com

I do hunt the east with rifles better suited to hunt the west. In PA where I hunt most stands offer sub 100 yard shots with one or two that push 200 and one field that goes to 500. I built my my two main hunting rifles on the other hand to be capable of much father than I have anywhere to shoot and have taken both past 1000 yards in practice.

I have no doubt that some guys will push the envelope with a muzzleloader, a quick glance at the other thread shows that several guys mention the Arrowhead Muzzleloaders and bullets. I have one of their barrels that I put on one of my deer rifles for our 1 week inline season and use with smokeless powder and a suppressor. I don't shoot it a ton but I have shot it to 350 at targets and it is definitely capable of shooting much farther even though I killed my doe with it a 30 yards.

That being said my set up would be out of the ordinary, the only other guy I know who has one got it solely to shoot smokeless for the cleaning not the extra range. A cursory glance at the guys I hunt with shows the following - the 2 Arrowhead barrels mentioned above, 2 old Rem 700MZ, 3 traditions break actions, 3 CVA break actions, 2 TC break actions, 1 TC flintlock, and an old TC inline.

So of the 14 muzzleloaders we had at camp only the two smokeless are shooting past 300 and mine is the only one who's actually shot that far. The T/C break actions have proven to be accurate as my Dad killed a doe around 250 with it but the rest I haven't seen get one over 100 yards.

I did one year watch a bunch of guys shoot at a deer at 450 yards with muzzleloaders, everyone got to shoot at least twice and nobody was even close enough for the deer to stop eating and run away. I had a CVA Accura LR at the time and knew I couldn't hit at that range so I didn't even try. It eventually got full and wandered off completely unscathed.

 

[huntwithme]

I do hunt the east with rifles better suited to hunt the west. In PA where I hunt most stands offer sub 100 yard shots with one or two that push 200 and one field that goes to 500. I built my my two main hunting rifles on the other hand to be capable of much father than I have anywhere to shoot and have taken both past 1000 yards in practice.

I have no doubt that some guys will push the envelope with a muzzleloader, a quick glance at the other thread shows that several guys mention the Arrowhead Muzzleloaders and bullets. I have one of their barrels that I put on one of my deer rifles for our 1 week inline season and use with smokeless powder and a suppressor. I don't shoot it a ton but I have shot it to 350 at targets and it is definitely capable of shooting much farther even though I killed my doe with it a 30 yards.

That being said my set up would be out of the ordinary, the only other guy I know who has one got it solely to shoot smokeless for the cleaning not the extra range. A cursory glance at the guys I hunt with shows the following - the 2 Arrowhead barrels mentioned above, 2 old Rem 700MZ, 3 traditions break actions, 3 CVA break actions, 2 TC break actions, 1 TC flintlock, and an old TC inline.

So of the 14 muzzleloaders we had at camp only the two smokeless are shooting past 300 and mine is the only one who's actually shot that far. The T/C break actions have proven to be accurate as my Dad killed a doe around 250 with it but the rest I haven't seen get one over 100 yards.

I did one year watch a bunch of guys shoot at a deer at 450 yards with muzzleloaders, everyone got to shoot at least twice and nobody was even close enough for the deer to stop eating and run away. I had a CVA Accura LR at the time and knew I couldn't hit at that range so I didn't even try. It eventually got full and wandered off com

all you people talking about using smokeless powder you can't use smokeless powder in new mexico for the muzzleloading season only blackpowder, pyrodex or equivalent blackpowder substitute may be used acording to the 2021-2022 hunting booklet page 28 my cva shoots 100 grns of blackhorn powder and a 260 grn bullet at 1832 fps at the muzzle and at 200 yards the energy is about 1358 foot pounds of energy