Need some help with sizing

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by roaddog1m, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. roaddog1m

    roaddog1m Well-Known Member

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    This is a 6mm-06AI case. Brand new 28" barrel 8 twist. The case was annealed (5 seconds while turned on a drill under flame then quenched), sized and fire formed from a Winchester 25-06 case. I shot this top group just a couple of hours ago while fire forming with a mild load.
    After I got back with the fire formed brass, I attempted to FL size the case (light lube) and the first two took a crinkle below the shoulder. What am I doing wrong here. I don't want to ruin all my fire formed brass.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Thanks!
    Tom
     
  2. roaddog1m

    roaddog1m Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I backed the die off about a 1/2 turn and it still chambers but no crinkles. Thanks for all the help. :cool: I guess you guys all have real jobs and work during the day.

    Tom
     
  3. winmag

    winmag Well-Known Member

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    Haha, looks like you may have solved it on your own. But dont wory Im guessing someone smart will be off work shortly and give helpfull advise. :D
     
  4. 7 loader

    7 loader Well-Known Member

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    The 1/2 turn back will work is it it chambering hard or smooth? If smoth, keep going.gun)
     
  5. roaddog1m

    roaddog1m Well-Known Member

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    It's chambering a little tight. I have to check and see if my bullet is jammed up against the lands. I think my Redding die needs fit to my chamber. That would be my guess. I took it out and shot some more and didn't have any problems. Still groups under an inch while fire forming.

    Tom
     
  6. Gunpoor

    Gunpoor Well-Known Member

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    Have you considered using a neck sizing die for this cartridge? I think that would be as close to a custom chamber fit as can be had and would save your brass from an early demise. That is what I would use in this situation.
     
  7. BillR

    BillR Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the die is a little short compared to the chamber. Also looks like you solved the problem already. Some reamer/die combination's just don't quite match up. Now just adjust it till you hit the sweet spot where the bolt closes easily but does not ruin the case. Something else to look at though is try taking the decaping stem out or backing it off once and size one with i the die screwed down. Just a hunch. :)
     
  8. royinidaho

    royinidaho Well-Known Member

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    That would be me!:D Humility is my greatest attribute.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Try seating without the bullet inserted. This will tell you if the stiffness is due to the shoulder being a bit forward. I have a cartridge that is quite finicky at least for me. According to the cartridge designer I'm supposed to FL resize every time. Once the die is set up properly, weld the damn thing to keep from fiddling with it. Otherwise ya gotta start over.

    There was a post recently with a great pic of a slotted neck for setting the ogive @ the leade/riflings.

    For sizing for fire forming, after the sizing die has been welded........ stick maybe a dime's thickness of legal tablet back or some such stuff under under the die knurled nut to get the the neck bump that will maintain head space when the fire forming is performed.

    Just some tho'ts.

    BTW, how much do you figger for the movie rights?lightbulb
     
  9. roaddog1m

    roaddog1m Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys! I can see where the lands are marking the bullet so I backed out .030.

    I'm a little scared to heat up my $120 FL sizing die. LoL Not a bad idea though. I will tighten up the lock ring and see if that will hold it.

    It's actually an Encore, so I'm not closing a bolt on this rifle. However, I'm getting sub moa while fire forming so I have hopes. I don't even have any load data for the 6mm-06AI I'm using 240Wby and praying a lot. Can't find any info on RL17 but I love the stuff. Right now I'm fire forming with 48gns. RL17 pushing a 105 A Max. It was raining yesterday so I didn't bring out the chono. Ya, that's right, I said RAINING. But at least it all froze on the roads so work tonight should be fun! :cool:

    Roy, did you have someone in mind???
    [​IMG]
     
  10. kraky

    kraky Well-Known Member

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    xxxxx
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  11. kraky

    kraky Well-Known Member

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    I was going to run a quickload to see if I could help you with some data. After some fiddling the only way I think I can give you reasonable data would be to change the volume of a 6mm-284 case to match the water capacity of your cases. If you are interested please post the capacity in grains and I should be able to run a fairly accurate set of load data for you to use.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  12. kraky

    kraky Well-Known Member

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    Sep 4, 2001
    heres 6mm-284 with h2O changed from 67 grains to 70 grains....should be close.
    105 amax at 60k pressure.

    Cartridge : 6-284 6mm/284 Shehane
    Bullet : .243, 105, Hornady A-MAX 24562
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.591 inch or 65.81 mm
    Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm

    Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

    Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa

    or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 113 %

    These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
    C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
    loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
    that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
    and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
    USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

    104 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 75%. These powders have been skipped.

    Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
    % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
    --------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
    ADI AR 2218 107.7 64.6 4.19 3328 97.0 60000 21768 1.162 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N570 103.8 61.7 4.00 3311 96.7 60000 21073 1.185 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H870 110.1 64.1 4.15 3289 98.3 60000 20571 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon Retumbo 107.5 60.9 3.95 3287 100.0 60000 18684 1.176 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 97.6 58.9 3.81 3251 99.6 60000 18607 1.181 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    PB Clermont PCL 517 97.9 58.9 3.82 3251 99.6 60000 18594 1.181 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma MRP 2 102.8 57.9 3.75 3249 99.6 60000 18818 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    SNPE Vectan SP 12 97.8 58.8 3.81 3249 99.7 60000 18549 1.182 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N560 95.0 54.7 3.54 3249 99.0 60000 18604 1.184 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma MRP 93.2 54.8 3.55 3244 100.0 60000 17976 1.192 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Alliant Reloder-25 100.7 56.4 3.66 3244 100.0 60000 17399 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 7828 99.4 54.4 3.53 3243 99.3 60000 18053 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 7828 SSC 94.0 54.4 3.53 3243 99.3 60000 18053 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate MAGPRO 95.3 57.1 3.70 3240 98.1 60000 18935 1.192 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AP 2214 99.1 57.9 3.75 3233 99.6 60000 17941 1.167 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AR 2213 95.1 54.2 3.51 3232 99.3 60000 17882 1.169 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H1000 104.2 58.1 3.76 3230 99.6 60000 17899 1.167 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 95.3 54.3 3.52 3222 99.8 60000 17787 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Alliant Reloder-22 95.3 54.3 3.52 3222 99.8 60000 17787 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Raufoss RA15 95.3 54.3 3.52 3222 99.8 60000 17787 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Winchester WXR 97.8 54.5 3.53 3221 99.8 60000 17828 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori 24N41 106.4 63.9 4.14 3198 91.1 60000 19189 1.174 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil R905 96.7 54.1 3.50 3197 99.0 60000 17490 1.186 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon 50BMG 112.0 64.0 4.15 3192 87.2 60000 19487 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AR 2209 92.2 51.7 3.35 3190 99.7 60000 16784 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon US 869 111.7 67.1 4.35 3189 91.2 60000 19468 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Alliant Reloder-19 92.6 52.2 3.38 3186 99.8 60000 16874 1.180 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Bofors RP14 ~approximation 93.3 52.6 3.41 3179 99.8 60000 16784 1.181 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Winchester 760 83.4 49.7 3.22 3175 100.0 60000 16173 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H4350 88.1 49.4 3.20 3175 100.0 60000 15834 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Ramshot Hunter 88.3 51.4 3.33 3171 100.0 60000 16147 1.188 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H4831 97.8 53.5 3.47 3168 98.8 60000 16878 1.177 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H4831 SC 94.0 53.5 3.47 3168 98.8 60000 16878 1.177 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 4350 90.4 48.8 3.16 3167 100.0 60000 15796 1.181 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Raufoss RA4 90.9 51.2 3.32 3166 99.7 60000 16440 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Bofors RP4 ~approximation 90.9 51.2 3.32 3166 99.7 60000 16440 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma 204 88.0 51.2 3.32 3166 99.7 60000 16440 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    SNPE Vectan SP 13 113.0 65.1 4.22 3161 95.4 57854 18966 1.216 ! Near Maximum !
    Alliant Reloder-17 81.3 48.1 3.11 3156 100.0 60000 15085 1.174 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H414 81.5 48.9 3.17 3156 100.0 60000 15902 1.191 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N170 106.9 59.6 3.86 3151 95.2 60000 17860 1.201 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori 20N29 113.0 68.5 4.44 3150 92.9 56312 19660 1.228 ! Near Maximum !
    Vihtavuori N550 85.4 49.2 3.19 3148 100.0 60000 15524 1.196 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma URP 87.9 49.0 3.17 3148 100.0 60000 15351 1.193 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Bofors RP19 ~approximation 87.9 49.0 3.17 3148 100.0 60000 15349 1.193 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Somchem S385 92.7 52.8 3.42 3145 100.0 60000 16136 1.201 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil R904 91.8 51.0 3.31 3142 99.2 60000 16118 1.177 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 4350 91.0 49.0 3.18 3141 100.0 60000 15321 1.213 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Somchem S365 89.3 50.0 3.24 3140 100.0 60000 14945 1.204 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Winchester Supreme 780 91.6 54.4 3.53 3139 99.7 60000 16227 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N165 97.8 54.5 3.53 3131 99.9 60000 15911 1.192 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 4831 92.2 49.7 3.22 3128 100.0 60000 15075 1.202 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Ramshot BigGame 82.1 47.7 3.09 3125 100.0 60000 14749 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N160 98.1 53.0 3.43 3124 99.2 60000 15949 1.181 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    SNPE Vectan SP 11 82.2 47.8 3.10 3124 100.0 60000 14733 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Lovex-S0701 88.0 49.0 3.18 3123 100.0 60000 15356 1.196 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 3100 101.0 53.8 3.49 3123 100.0 60000 15670 1.220 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Lovex-D1001 103.9 63.0 4.08 3123 91.9 60000 17708 1.191 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Alliant Reloder-15 80.2 45.2 2.93 3115 100.0 60000 14463 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Bofors RP11 ~approximation 80.2 45.2 2.93 3115 100.0 60000 14463 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Raufoss RA11 80.2 45.2 2.93 3115 100.0 60000 14463 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H380 81.5 46.9 3.04 3114 100.0 60000 14765 1.194 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil R907 86.3 47.7 3.09 3112 100.0 60000 15143 1.185 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 4007 SSC 83.6 47.8 3.10 3111 100.0 60000 15135 1.186 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 4895 81.0 44.2 2.86 3109 100.0 60000 13807 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    PB Clermont PCL 516 78.8 47.3 3.06 3109 100.0 60000 14628 1.184 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma 203B 80.5 45.4 2.94 3108 100.0 60000 14352 1.192 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 93.3 49.2 3.19 3101 100.0 60000 14232 1.194 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Lovex-S0651 87.1 48.0 3.11 3099 100.0 60000 14710 1.193 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 4320 82.1 45.5 2.95 3099 100.0 60000 14017 1.176 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    PB Clermont PCL 513/520/9520 113.0 65.1 4.22 3092 93.2 54022 18707 1.252 ! Near Maximum !
    Hodgdon BL-C2 75.7 46.5 3.01 3091 100.0 60000 14188 1.199 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    SNPE Vectan SP 9 78.5 45.7 2.96 3089 100.0 60000 14050 1.185 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma 203 old 81.5 46.4 3.01 3089 100.0 60000 14172 1.209 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon VARGET 83.2 45.4 2.94 3088 100.0 60000 14030 1.176 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AR 2208 82.9 45.4 2.94 3088 100.0 60000 14030 1.176 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil R903 83.3 46.4 3.01 3086 100.0 60000 14078 1.208 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Somchem S355 83.7 46.1 2.99 3085 100.0 60000 14078 1.199 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 8700 113.0 65.2 4.22 3081 94.2 52334 18673 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
    IMR 4064 83.6 44.5 2.88 3079 100.0 60000 13745 1.181 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Somchem S341 77.0 46.7 3.03 3073 100.0 60000 13778 1.188 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    PB Clermont PCL 507 75.6 44.5 2.88 3071 100.0 60000 13615 1.186 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N530 75.2 42.6 2.76 3067 100.0 60000 13407 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 2700 84.8 49.3 3.20 3066 99.9 60000 14451 1.188 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Lovex-S0621 81.2 44.5 2.88 3061 100.0 60000 13503 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma 201 75.6 43.5 2.82 3055 100.0 60000 13410 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon H4895 82.5 45.0 2.92 3054 100.0 60000 13270 1.184 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 2520 77.2 44.8 2.90 3050 100.0 60000 13292 1.211 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil R902 80.5 43.7 2.83 3047 100.0 60000 13271 1.198 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    IMR 3031 79.1 41.7 2.70 3045 100.0 60000 12873 1.199 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Lovex-S0601 79.2 43.4 2.81 3045 100.0 60000 13161 1.175 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N140 85.4 46.2 3.00 3040 100.0 60000 13250 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N150 88.5 47.0 3.05 3039 100.0 60000 13342 1.199 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 4064 84.5 44.5 2.88 3036 100.0 60000 13214 1.229 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma 202 78.2 43.3 2.81 3033 100.0 60000 12960 1.196 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N540 80.3 45.8 2.96 3032 100.0 60000 13250 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AR 2206 78.7 43.9 2.84 3031 100.0 60000 12981 1.175 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AR 2206H 78.1 44.0 2.85 3029 100.0 60000 12952 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon Benchmark 76.7 42.6 2.76 3023 100.0 60000 12739 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil R901 77.2 41.3 2.68 3018 100.0 60000 12692 1.204 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Accurate 2495 78.6 41.9 2.71 3006 100.0 60000 12617 1.233 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Alliant Reloder-12 75.1 43.1 2.79 2995 100.0 60000 12363 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N135 84.7 43.3 2.80 2988 100.0 60000 12211 1.209 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Somchem S335 78.9 43.5 2.82 2969 100.0 60000 12102 1.200 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N133 80.4 41.5 2.69 2945 100.0 60000 11502 1.191 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Vihtavuori N130 76.0 40.0 2.59 2929 100.0 60000 11313 1.195 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    NC A3502 ,test only 113.0 62.3 4.04 2845 70.7 46354 16013 1.321
    TLP A 502(RH) ,test only 113.0 62.3 4.04 2817 74.2 44022 16175 1.359
    Alliant RED DOT 76.1 21.4 1.38 2444 100.0 60000 6689 1.192 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    ADI AS 30 75.7 22.0 1.43 2419 100.0 60000 6502 1.200 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Hodgdon Clays 80.3 21.6 1.40 2401 100.0 60000 6380 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Norma R1 80.3 22.9 1.48 2400 100.0 60000 6402 1.200 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Rottweil P805 81.9 22.8 1.48 2400 100.0 60000 6394 1.200 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    V1734 7-multiperf ,test only 113.0 62.3 4.04 2008 34.8 23472 7887 1.812
     
  13. roaddog1m

    roaddog1m Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    306
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Uhhhhh....wow! That's a lot of info. Thanks. I see that they all say not to use the load though. Also, I see Red Dot used. If I remember right, Red Dot is a pistol powder of the fastest variety.

    Can you explain how to use this info? Thanks

    Tom
     
  14. kraky

    kraky Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    301
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2001
    The chart gets messed up and columns get goofy when posting. The first of course is the powder brand. The next is the fill ratio.....how full the case gets with the powder. The next number is the powder charge in grains, next is charge in grams, next is velocity, next is amount of propellant burned, next is max pressure, next is pressure when bullet exits muzzle, last number is burn time.
    Re the dangerous load notation....quick load starts warning of pressure around 58k pressure. I usually try and work up to at least 60 k for my loads so I set the top pressure there.

    To use the important numbers here are some examples...

    RE22 95%fill 54.3 grains, 3222vel,
    I7828 99% fill 54.4 grains 3243 vel.
    RE17 81%fill 48.9 grains 3156 vel.

    FWIw..I use quick load alot. It isn't always perfect for forecasting. If anything it's usually slightly conservative....especially if you have a bit of freebore in your rifle. I'd say start a couple grains under the loads predicted and see what vel comes up and apply common sense as you work up. If your cases hold about 70 grains of water to the top these numbers should be close.
    Bottom line is as you work up with the 105 amax and slower powders you should begin to get near max at about 3250-3300fps. The powder list sorts from the slowest burning powders down to the faster powders.
    You mentioned you were fireforming cases with 48 of re17. It will be interesting to see the velocity compared to what it thinks the max load is above. My guess is you will be doing about 3000-3100....but thats where the chrono comes in handy.