Hoppes # 9 will not cut copper. Hoppes BR will cut copper.
BH
BH
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CatShooter
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hoppes # 9 will not cut copper. Hoppes BR will cut copper.
BH
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry... but I have a gallon milk jug full of very green patches - ALL of them are Hoppe's #9. It cuts copper.
It may not be as fast as some of the new super cleaners, but I can leave it in the barrel for days without worrying about damage.
I have plugged really bad copper fouled barrels and filled them with #9, and let it sit for days to get the copper out - it dies!
.
Hoppes # 9 will not cut copper. Hoppes BR will cut copper.
BH
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry... but I have a gallon milk jug full of very green patches - ALL of them are Hoppe's #9. It cuts copper.
It may not be as fast as some of the new super cleaners, but I can leave it in the barrel for days without worrying about damage.
I have plugged really bad copper fouled barrels and filled them with #9, and let it sit for days to get the copper out - it dies!
.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry... but I have a gallon milk jug full of very green patches - ALL of them are Hoppe's #9. It cuts copper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, just rubs the heck out of it, which if you rub long and hard enough you can get anything out. It was never designed to be an "efficiant method of cleaning" and copper removal, which was the original question. #9 was originally made for carbon, powder and lead. Hoppes BR was later designed for copper removal and is exactly the same price by the way.
More efficiant cleaners are better for barrels as your rod spends less time in the barrel. Most people do not use bore guides and decent rods and end up damaging their barrels in the long run.
Worrying about leaving modern solvents in barrels really is not an issue. There are almost zero cleaning solvents out on the market now that really are dangerous to leave in barrels. Sweets 7.62 might be the last.
I know that Montana Extreme 50 BMB, ME Copper Creme, Butches Bore Shine, Barnes, Eliminator etc, all can be left safely in barrels for as long as you want. Plus they are designed to work without having to fill the barrel and leave overnight to get copper out. That is old school, when nothing else worked.
When you use a borescope, you find out what works and what does not, and what is reality.
BH
Sorry... but I have a gallon milk jug full of very green patches - ALL of them are Hoppe's #9. It cuts copper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, just rubs the heck out of it, which if you rub long and hard enough you can get anything out. It was never designed to be an "efficiant method of cleaning" and copper removal, which was the original question. #9 was originally made for carbon, powder and lead. Hoppes BR was later designed for copper removal and is exactly the same price by the way.
More efficiant cleaners are better for barrels as your rod spends less time in the barrel. Most people do not use bore guides and decent rods and end up damaging their barrels in the long run.
Worrying about leaving modern solvents in barrels really is not an issue. There are almost zero cleaning solvents out on the market now that really are dangerous to leave in barrels. Sweets 7.62 might be the last.
I know that Montana Extreme 50 BMB, ME Copper Creme, Butches Bore Shine, Barnes, Eliminator etc, all can be left safely in barrels for as long as you want. Plus they are designed to work without having to fill the barrel and leave overnight to get copper out. That is old school, when nothing else worked.
When you use a borescope, you find out what works and what does not, and what is reality.
BH
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry... but I have a gallon milk jug full of very green patches - ALL of them are Hoppe's #9. It cuts copper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, just rubs the heck out of it, which if you rub long and hard enough you can get anything out. BH
[/ QUOTE ]
Not true... cuz I don't rub the heck out of it.
I run a wet patch through the barrel and let it sit - when I come back and run another patch through the barrel, it comes out dark green - green means COPPER.
If you don't like the stuff, that's fine, but you are wrong about it not removing copper.
.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry... but I have a gallon milk jug full of very green patches - ALL of them are Hoppe's #9. It cuts copper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, just rubs the heck out of it, which if you rub long and hard enough you can get anything out. BH
[/ QUOTE ]
Not true... cuz I don't rub the heck out of it.
I run a wet patch through the barrel and let it sit - when I come back and run another patch through the barrel, it comes out dark green - green means COPPER.
If you don't like the stuff, that's fine, but you are wrong about it not removing copper.
.
Well if I am wrong so is Hoppes itself.
Try calling Bushnell who owns Hoppes and ask for the Hoppes tech. They will have to go back and ask the real techs, but they will shortly come back and tell you that #9 is not designed for copper and do not expect it to remove it. They say that is why they came out with the BR copper solvent.
In fact their BR copper solvent label, advertising and technicians all say "that firearms can be cleaned overnight instead of the 3 to 4 days it normally takes". Now if the Hoppes standard for copper removal with their copper solvent is overnight instead of 3-4 days, doubt #9 cuts the mustard as a reliable or efficiant copper remover regardless of how many green patches you have.
Another thing we found is that solvents will react with the bronze jag and give you a false color on the patch. You might be cleaning the hell out of your jag.
So green patches could be that reaction or minor reaction with some copper in the barrel. But colored patches is not an indicator of a clean or not clean barrel.
Now #9 is good for the carbon ring in the barrel for sure.
Unless you have a borescope you really do not know what works and what does not.
BH
Try calling Bushnell who owns Hoppes and ask for the Hoppes tech. They will have to go back and ask the real techs, but they will shortly come back and tell you that #9 is not designed for copper and do not expect it to remove it. They say that is why they came out with the BR copper solvent.
In fact their BR copper solvent label, advertising and technicians all say "that firearms can be cleaned overnight instead of the 3 to 4 days it normally takes". Now if the Hoppes standard for copper removal with their copper solvent is overnight instead of 3-4 days, doubt #9 cuts the mustard as a reliable or efficiant copper remover regardless of how many green patches you have.
Another thing we found is that solvents will react with the bronze jag and give you a false color on the patch. You might be cleaning the hell out of your jag.
So green patches could be that reaction or minor reaction with some copper in the barrel. But colored patches is not an indicator of a clean or not clean barrel.
Now #9 is good for the carbon ring in the barrel for sure.
Unless you have a borescope you really do not know what works and what does not.
BH
Roll-Yur-Own
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 795
Just use wipeout and the wipe accelerator and forget everything else.
MarioT
Well-Known Member
I dont really have anywhere out here that carries these things besides the internet. But hopefully I can order some butches stuff... or something.
MarioT
Well-Known Member
Cool, thanks for the links /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Ok guys, im going to ask if some of you guys can put together a list of what things I should get/what I need.
Thanks a lot guys
Ok guys, im going to ask if some of you guys can put together a list of what things I should get/what I need.
Thanks a lot guys
milanuk
Well-Known Member
What I use:
good quality one-piece cleaning rod... Dewey, Bore-Tech, Pro-Shot or others.
bore guide... some swear by Lucas or other BR specialty ones; I get by pretty well w/ the white ones from Sinclair (or other) quality shooting sports suppliers. I *do not* like the Stoney Point or similar ones w/ the aluminum tube connecting two plastic parts, w/ a little handle to 'lock' it in places. Dang things never seem to seal well for me.
Patches... somethng w/ some substance to them. Local store stocks Pro-shot patches (local hunter BR guys like 'em) and they seem to work pretty well.
As far as chemicals... I've tried a variety of things over the years, and everybody has their favorites based on their experience. Currently I'm using Witches Brew per the directions, which seems to scrub the carbon out pretty effectively, then 3-4 patches of Wipeout Accelerator to push out the residue from the 'Brew and preps for the following 2-3 patches of Wipeout Patchout (got tired of dicking w/ the foam and the mess... seemed like in order to get enough to go all the way down the bore, I ended up w/ this little Mt. Vesuvius back at the breech end). Patches come out clean to a light grey after sitting a while (normally set things up down in the basement shop while I go wash my hands and go to supper, for instance).
Afterwards, I wrap a big (3") patch (Pro-shot again) around a .45 cal pistol brush on a ~10" cleaning rod (from Sinclair's, but I'm guessing a pistol cleaning rod for long barreled revolvers would probably work as well) and patch dry the chamber and throat area (some residue of cleaning solvents seems to always find it's way in there, and thats a good way to flatten primers on the first couple rounds after cleaning when the case can't 'grip' the chamber walls evenly all the way around and the bolt face ends up taking all the pressure...). I follow that w/ a swipe w/ a bolt lug raceway cleaning tool and the little felt rolls... gets any gunk (like dirty bolt grease, or CLP /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )out of the bolt lug recesses or raceways.
Put some fresh grease on the back of the bolt lugs and put it back together.
Others are likely to disagree... strongly, but it works for me.
YMMV,
Monte
good quality one-piece cleaning rod... Dewey, Bore-Tech, Pro-Shot or others.
bore guide... some swear by Lucas or other BR specialty ones; I get by pretty well w/ the white ones from Sinclair (or other) quality shooting sports suppliers. I *do not* like the Stoney Point or similar ones w/ the aluminum tube connecting two plastic parts, w/ a little handle to 'lock' it in places. Dang things never seem to seal well for me.
Patches... somethng w/ some substance to them. Local store stocks Pro-shot patches (local hunter BR guys like 'em) and they seem to work pretty well.
As far as chemicals... I've tried a variety of things over the years, and everybody has their favorites based on their experience. Currently I'm using Witches Brew per the directions, which seems to scrub the carbon out pretty effectively, then 3-4 patches of Wipeout Accelerator to push out the residue from the 'Brew and preps for the following 2-3 patches of Wipeout Patchout (got tired of dicking w/ the foam and the mess... seemed like in order to get enough to go all the way down the bore, I ended up w/ this little Mt. Vesuvius back at the breech end). Patches come out clean to a light grey after sitting a while (normally set things up down in the basement shop while I go wash my hands and go to supper, for instance).
Afterwards, I wrap a big (3") patch (Pro-shot again) around a .45 cal pistol brush on a ~10" cleaning rod (from Sinclair's, but I'm guessing a pistol cleaning rod for long barreled revolvers would probably work as well) and patch dry the chamber and throat area (some residue of cleaning solvents seems to always find it's way in there, and thats a good way to flatten primers on the first couple rounds after cleaning when the case can't 'grip' the chamber walls evenly all the way around and the bolt face ends up taking all the pressure...). I follow that w/ a swipe w/ a bolt lug raceway cleaning tool and the little felt rolls... gets any gunk (like dirty bolt grease, or CLP /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )out of the bolt lug recesses or raceways.
Put some fresh grease on the back of the bolt lugs and put it back together.
Others are likely to disagree... strongly, but it works for me.
YMMV,
Monte
Only things I will add is this.
I like the Dewey rods, the coating does not peel like the Boretechs.
I like the Dewey Pierce jags, they are both wrap and punch thru. You can use either way. Understand, jags will color patches so watch out for that. You will quickly learn real copper from the jag coloring if you watch.
Pick your chemical. I like Montana Extreme 50 BMG and their copper creme. I also use their hard plastic brushes instead of the bronze.
You can make the chamber cleaning tool. buy a cheap aluminum/carbon arrow with insert in the end. Cut off to 14-20" at the nock end. buy a wood or plastic file handle, drill a hole that fits the arrow, glue in. Put a 45 cal plastic bore brush on the end. 3" shotgun patch to clean the chamber and rails. Saves $20 and longer length is easier to use than the commercial models.
Small pen flashlight. Look for copper streaks inside the muzzle with the light, normally the hardest to get out and last remaining copper.
You will feel tight patches sometimes the first 1-3" inside the bore, that is carbon. that has to come out. ME Copper creme cuts it like crazy.
use the sinclair catalog.
BH
I like the Dewey rods, the coating does not peel like the Boretechs.
I like the Dewey Pierce jags, they are both wrap and punch thru. You can use either way. Understand, jags will color patches so watch out for that. You will quickly learn real copper from the jag coloring if you watch.
Pick your chemical. I like Montana Extreme 50 BMG and their copper creme. I also use their hard plastic brushes instead of the bronze.
You can make the chamber cleaning tool. buy a cheap aluminum/carbon arrow with insert in the end. Cut off to 14-20" at the nock end. buy a wood or plastic file handle, drill a hole that fits the arrow, glue in. Put a 45 cal plastic bore brush on the end. 3" shotgun patch to clean the chamber and rails. Saves $20 and longer length is easier to use than the commercial models.
Small pen flashlight. Look for copper streaks inside the muzzle with the light, normally the hardest to get out and last remaining copper.
You will feel tight patches sometimes the first 1-3" inside the bore, that is carbon. that has to come out. ME Copper creme cuts it like crazy.
use the sinclair catalog.
BH
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Well if I am wrong so is Hoppes itself.
Try calling Bushnell who owns Hoppes and ask for the Hoppes tech. They will have to go back and ask the real techs, but they will shortly come back and tell you that #9 is not designed for copper and do not expect it to remove it. They say that is why they came out with the BR copper solvent.
In fact their BR copper solvent label, advertising and technicians all say "that firearms can be cleaned overnight instead of the 3 to 4 days it normally takes". Now if the Hoppes standard for copper removal with their copper solvent is overnight instead of 3-4 days, doubt #9 cuts the mustard as a reliable or efficiant copper remover regardless of how many green patches you have.
Another thing we found is that solvents will react with the bronze jag and give you a false color on the patch. You might be cleaning the hell out of your jag.
So green patches could be that reaction or minor reaction with some copper in the barrel. But colored patches is not an indicator of a clean or not clean barrel.
Now #9 is good for the carbon ring in the barrel for sure.
Unless you have a borescope you really do not know what works and what does not.
BH
[/ QUOTE ]
HA...
The "Tech" that you spoke to is the telephone girl at Bushnell. She is a technical "specialist" in ANY product of the many lines that Bushnell has taken over. She reads from a FAQ card, so she know all the answers.
When she got the "other" tech (the one "you" spoke to), he didn't know what "green" on a patch meant.
I asked him if he used the product, and he said he was "fully trained in answering questions"... I asked him if he used it on a gun, and he said he uses it every night (???)... I asked him what caliber was the gun... he couldn't answer.
Next year, they will be answering the phones from Bombay, with an Indian accent, just like Microsoft.
You really went to the horse's mouth!
So I asked for his supervisor, and laced him for having phone people that answered questions from a FAQ card.
He said that he will "make sure his phone tech's have the right answers"???
He doesn't own guns, or use the product, either.
What you were talking to is the modern day "Corporate Boiler Room"... no one that answers the phones there uses ANY of the products. They are just phone answering bodies with FAQ cards in front of them.
Bushnell has become another Blount - just a corporate holding company.
Last year, the people that we spoke to might have been working the phones for GM, or any other large corporation... it's just a job to them - they know nothing about the products.
You cannot get to a Hoppe's employee by calling that number - they're all Bushnell corporate phone monkeys - they don't own guns (none of the three that I spoke to owned a gun)... they read from FAQ cards.
So much for your sources.
But the real answer as to whether Hoppe's #9 removes copper is your own statement.
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing we found is that solvents will react with the bronze jag and give you a false color on the patch. You might be cleaning the hell out of your jag.
So green patches could be that reaction or minor reaction with some copper in the barrel. But colored patches is not an indicator of a clean or not clean barrel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Read that twice and tell me how #9 can dissolve the copper in the jag, but NOT dissolve the copper in the barrel... and if that's true, why is the green copper on the patch on the outside where it touches the barrel, and not on the inside, where it touches the jag??
BH... I think you are getting a little silly in trying to defend your statement that #9 doesn't remove copper, and this is getting up over your boot tops.
.
Well if I am wrong so is Hoppes itself.
Try calling Bushnell who owns Hoppes and ask for the Hoppes tech. They will have to go back and ask the real techs, but they will shortly come back and tell you that #9 is not designed for copper and do not expect it to remove it. They say that is why they came out with the BR copper solvent.
In fact their BR copper solvent label, advertising and technicians all say "that firearms can be cleaned overnight instead of the 3 to 4 days it normally takes". Now if the Hoppes standard for copper removal with their copper solvent is overnight instead of 3-4 days, doubt #9 cuts the mustard as a reliable or efficiant copper remover regardless of how many green patches you have.
Another thing we found is that solvents will react with the bronze jag and give you a false color on the patch. You might be cleaning the hell out of your jag.
So green patches could be that reaction or minor reaction with some copper in the barrel. But colored patches is not an indicator of a clean or not clean barrel.
Now #9 is good for the carbon ring in the barrel for sure.
Unless you have a borescope you really do not know what works and what does not.
BH
[/ QUOTE ]
HA...
The "Tech" that you spoke to is the telephone girl at Bushnell. She is a technical "specialist" in ANY product of the many lines that Bushnell has taken over. She reads from a FAQ card, so she know all the answers.
When she got the "other" tech (the one "you" spoke to), he didn't know what "green" on a patch meant.
I asked him if he used the product, and he said he was "fully trained in answering questions"... I asked him if he used it on a gun, and he said he uses it every night (???)... I asked him what caliber was the gun... he couldn't answer.
Next year, they will be answering the phones from Bombay, with an Indian accent, just like Microsoft.
You really went to the horse's mouth!
So I asked for his supervisor, and laced him for having phone people that answered questions from a FAQ card.
He said that he will "make sure his phone tech's have the right answers"???
He doesn't own guns, or use the product, either.
What you were talking to is the modern day "Corporate Boiler Room"... no one that answers the phones there uses ANY of the products. They are just phone answering bodies with FAQ cards in front of them.
Bushnell has become another Blount - just a corporate holding company.
Last year, the people that we spoke to might have been working the phones for GM, or any other large corporation... it's just a job to them - they know nothing about the products.
You cannot get to a Hoppe's employee by calling that number - they're all Bushnell corporate phone monkeys - they don't own guns (none of the three that I spoke to owned a gun)... they read from FAQ cards.
So much for your sources.
But the real answer as to whether Hoppe's #9 removes copper is your own statement.
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing we found is that solvents will react with the bronze jag and give you a false color on the patch. You might be cleaning the hell out of your jag.
So green patches could be that reaction or minor reaction with some copper in the barrel. But colored patches is not an indicator of a clean or not clean barrel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Read that twice and tell me how #9 can dissolve the copper in the jag, but NOT dissolve the copper in the barrel... and if that's true, why is the green copper on the patch on the outside where it touches the barrel, and not on the inside, where it touches the jag??
BH... I think you are getting a little silly in trying to defend your statement that #9 doesn't remove copper, and this is getting up over your boot tops.
.
[ QUOTE ]
Read that twice and tell me how #9 can dissolve the copper in the jag, but NOT dissolve the copper in the barrel... and if that's true, why is the green copper on the patch on the outside where it touches the barrel, and not on the inside, where it touches the jag??
[/ QUOTE ]
First off, cleaned hundreds of guns and thousands of patches as a competitive shooter. I have never seen or heard of a wet (you do realize they have to be wet to have solvent on them and as thin as they are they will be wet on both sides) patch having copper color only on one side, carbon yes. Only way that can happen is dry patch which means no solvent to cause a chemical reaction.
Now if you leave it in the barrel overnight and run a dry patch yes, you will get color on the outside of the patch. however that also means if you have to leave it overnight to remove copper, then it is really not worth a flip for that in the first place and is not and for "efficiant cleaning" which was the question.
Now according to Hoppes, their advertising says 3-4 days for solvents other than their BR copper solvent. That includes #9 unless in your world the "Indian boiler room' also came up with their advertising and marketing info too.
Jags and jackets are normally not pure copper, they are really brass (jag) or copper (jacket) alloy (copper, zinc, tin and lead) and all react differently depending on the chemical and exact composition of each component.
Jags and solvents can and will give you patch discoloration on a totally clean barrel due to the chemical reaction on the jag. Some faster and some slower.
Read the Hoppes Bottle and advertising that was quoted. So you are saying their labeling and advertising is all wrong?
Doubt the misinformed one here is Hoppes.
Bottom line is still #9 was and is not designed for copper nor is it even remotely a good product for that.
Forget the boots, you need to go straight to the waders and old school rubber ones at that.
Time to move into 2007 instead of 1950s.
BH
Read that twice and tell me how #9 can dissolve the copper in the jag, but NOT dissolve the copper in the barrel... and if that's true, why is the green copper on the patch on the outside where it touches the barrel, and not on the inside, where it touches the jag??
[/ QUOTE ]
First off, cleaned hundreds of guns and thousands of patches as a competitive shooter. I have never seen or heard of a wet (you do realize they have to be wet to have solvent on them and as thin as they are they will be wet on both sides) patch having copper color only on one side, carbon yes. Only way that can happen is dry patch which means no solvent to cause a chemical reaction.
Now if you leave it in the barrel overnight and run a dry patch yes, you will get color on the outside of the patch. however that also means if you have to leave it overnight to remove copper, then it is really not worth a flip for that in the first place and is not and for "efficiant cleaning" which was the question.
Now according to Hoppes, their advertising says 3-4 days for solvents other than their BR copper solvent. That includes #9 unless in your world the "Indian boiler room' also came up with their advertising and marketing info too.
Jags and jackets are normally not pure copper, they are really brass (jag) or copper (jacket) alloy (copper, zinc, tin and lead) and all react differently depending on the chemical and exact composition of each component.
Jags and solvents can and will give you patch discoloration on a totally clean barrel due to the chemical reaction on the jag. Some faster and some slower.
Read the Hoppes Bottle and advertising that was quoted. So you are saying their labeling and advertising is all wrong?
Doubt the misinformed one here is Hoppes.
Bottom line is still #9 was and is not designed for copper nor is it even remotely a good product for that.
Forget the boots, you need to go straight to the waders and old school rubber ones at that.
Time to move into 2007 instead of 1950s.
BH
MarioT
Well-Known Member
Hey so thanks for the help guys. I'll try and buy the stuff soon.
But i will have to clean with the stuff I have now. I have Hoppes #9, Remington Bore Cleaner, Rem oil, and CLP. Is hoppe's safe to leave in the barrel (Same with remington bore cleaner) and how long should it sit.
I might have more questions but thanks for the help /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
But i will have to clean with the stuff I have now. I have Hoppes #9, Remington Bore Cleaner, Rem oil, and CLP. Is hoppe's safe to leave in the barrel (Same with remington bore cleaner) and how long should it sit.
I might have more questions but thanks for the help /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
