Need good suggestions/ reccomendation

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by remingtonman_25_06, Aug 24, 2003.

  1. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys. I have been working up loads in my .243 with the 2 types of 55g B-tips, the regular ones and the Combined Technology versions. They are giving me 1 inch groups at 100 yards and some pretty good velocities out of a 22" barrel, but I'm always getting 2 shots touching or virtually in the same hole with a flyer that opens the group up to 1 inch. It happens with every load, every time, no matter what. Maybe its the bedding, or I need to have it recrowned, lap the lugs, any suggestions? I am willing to send it off anywhere to a good gunsmith to get it worked on or accurized. I want it to produce consistent 1/2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. I want to be able to consistently hit coyotes up to 600 yards, and 1 inch groups at 100 yards just dont cut it for me. I want 1/2 inch or better for that distance on that size of animal. Thanks for any suggestions or reccomendations
     
  2. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    06,
    Could be a couple of things. First- is the flyer always on the third shot?
    Second- is your POA same as POI? A lot of shooters that use the same POI/POA see a good one hole group forming and choke on the last shot. Try shooting benchrest style with your POA above or below the POI so you don't "muddy" up your POA losing target resolution and/or "choking" on the last shot.
    Stress in the barrel is a possibility- walking the third shot.
    Shifting in the stock is a big possibility. What stock do you have?
    I do an accuracy job that would most likely solve your problem but we need to investigate a little more first.
    Chris Matthews
    GA Precision
     
  3. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    chris

    The flyer is not always on the 3rd shot. Sometimes it will be the 1st shot and sometimes it will be the 3rd shot. The aiming point is not the same as bullet impact. I did properly break in the barrel to the best of my knowledge that I got from others. The rifle is a Rem 700 ADL Synthetic stock. Just a cheap one. But if it will always put 2 shots touching I dont see why its having such a tuff time putting just 1 more in there. Thats whats making me mad. This is the worst gun I have ever worked with that gives flyers. I have shot B-tips and Sierra Boat tails which both are proven to be very accurate, which they are but only 2 shots. I have a pretty good loading technique. I prep all my brass, individually weigh each charge. I have easily gotten 1/2" 3 shot groups with all my other guns and it would do it with a lot more consistency than this .243 is doing. Is there anything I could try or do to help? If not, I would be willing to send my gun to you so you can figure it out. Thanks.
     
  4. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    '06,
    You might want to re-think shooting 55 grain .243 bullets out anywhere near 600 yards - wind and retained energy will be big considerations. Short, fat bullets are not efficient, as I'm sure you already know. We had over ten feet of drift at 700 with 125 gr. .30's yesterday in a stout wind, that is about 1/3 more than the 168's.
    Coyotes can be tough critters,. I would be using something around 85 gr. or higher to buck some wind and retain some smack.
    I know, 55's theoretically don't leave a hole in the pelt, but that sometimes doesn't always work out as planned. I see 55's in a .243 as hellashis gopher killers or relatively close range coyote medicine, real close they can be nasty. I have shot some factory .243 55 grain loads from Black Hills Ammo that was very accurate and consistent, but we used it on gophers.
    I know serious coyote hunters who have gone to 77's and 80's in their hot .22 centerfires for long shooting.

    Might also be that your barrel won't shoot 55's into a half inch, regardless of what a gun-wizard like Chris does to it. If you are going to get some work on it, Chris at GA would be good (that will be five bucks, Chris [​IMG] )
     
  5. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Rem 25-06

    The 55 gr pills have about nothing for downrange BC.
    If your talking 600 yards thats a PD bullet, maybe?
    That is, "If" you can get the bullet there with zero wind.

    Try the Speer 85 gr BT which has a BC of .404 or the 87gr Hornady BT which has a BC of .376
    Both are much better then the 55 gr and should work better in your 10 twist factory barrel.

    Check your scope and make sure to tighten the base and rings up.
    If you have a Redfield dovetail mount system, take it off, throw it away and put a Weaver style base and rings set up on the rifle.

    I have a 10 twist 6mm Remington Factory rifle (10 twist) that will give great groups all day with the 87 Gr Hornady.

    Just my 2 cents

    Later
    DC
     
  6. 6.5 Bandit

    6.5 Bandit Well-Known Member

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    Rem,

    I would go with either the 87gr A-max or even the 105 A-max's if you have a 9 twist.. I have a factory Ruger M77 Mark II Target with a 9 twist that I can stick 5shot groups in a clover leaf all day long with the 105 and 87gr A-max's.

    For the 55gr bullet to 650 yd your only lookin @ around 350fpe left if MV is 3800. Which i think is not enough for yotes ghogs prolly wouldnt be a problem.. From what I understand Don from GrooveBullets is pushin a 52gr in 22 CHeetah Mark 1 @ 4200fps and he is deadly with chucks @ 650yds and I belive Boyd can verify that.. Don also claims he has shot in 20MPH wind to 600yds without any problems with his CHeetah..

    6.5 Bandit
     
  7. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Darryl,
    Tell the young fella what you REALLY think about Redfield style scope mounts [​IMG]
    I totally agree, sure nice to see someone else with that opinion.
    Even funnier is the belief that dual dovetails are a better solution - two dovetails to work loose, two tiny bits of metal holding the rings on (that will bend sideways), plus you lose the windage adjustment capability. Nice mounts if you baby them tho.
    Do you feel some discension coming our way [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  8. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Ian

    Your post;
    "Do you feel some discension coming our way"


    It matters not to me about the discension Ian. Found out just how flemsey the dovetail system really is, a long time ago.

    Anybody can check the ring, base system at 1000 yard matches and you won't find a Leupold or Redfield dove tail system on line unless it's a new shooter who hasn't learned yet. Many GOOD gunsmiths will point out the weakness in the dovetail system.

    The truth is the truth concerning that setup.
    If people don't agree, they will find out sooner or later---the hard way, and it could be during a match or when that trophy animal is standing there.

    I would suggest to any one to Get the Weaver or Kelbly style (clamp on) ring and base setup----- Sounds like your suggestion to?

    Look at the Badger setup----clamp on.

    Later
    DC
     
  9. bblaine2k

    bblaine2k Well-Known Member

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    Remingtonman_25_06

    Glad you're still chugging away at your .243 rig.

    Just a few thoughts as to what's causing flyers - mostly reloading.

    1. De-burring the flash hole. Of all the brass I've loaded, only A-Square and Norma haven't had a burr on the inside of the flash hole - rumor has it they drill their brass. Remington and Winchester punch the holes in their brass sometimes leaving a bad burr affecting primer flame column. Of course if you're already de-burring the holes then that's probably not the cause.

    2. Differences in bullet seating depth/C.O.A.L may start the bullet down the barrel differently from one shot to the next.

    3. Powder burn variations. I didn't believe this until a buddy of mine showed me. If there's 100 or more FPS variance with the same weight load, impacts can vary. He even predicted where the bullet would be after watching the chrono velocities. If one shot was 150 fps, it may strike high and right.

    4. Not squaring your dies. If you simply lock your reloading die by screwing down the locking ring, the die may not be square to the shell-holder. To fix this, simply lower the ram, place a perfectly flat washer on top the shell holder and flush it against the bottom of the sizing die. Holding pressure against the die, screw down the lock ring. This allows the slack and slop in the threads to be taken up before you lock the ring and size your brass. If the die and shellholder aren't square, then it may bend the brass ever-so slightly to the point where the cartridge doesn't lay perfectly centered in the chamber.

    5. Other causes - primers, bullet weight differences and any number of other factors including those with the firearm itself.

    I'd try de-burring your brass. That is usually one of the most common causes of flyers. The fact that it is only happening 1 out of 3, leads me to believe that it's something to do with the brass. Usually there are 4 machines making the brass we reloaders get. You never get brass made from just one machine so chances are it's a variance in the machines at the brass plant.

    Just my thoughts. Hope this helps.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
    By the way, I haven't been able to get onto shooters.com, have you?
     
  10. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    I got rid of the Redfields when I bent one over during a hunt, plus I get the willies when I turn a dovetail stud into the recess and can feel it cutting metal - even with lubrication on it. Have seen many rings removed and there was metal shavings in the dovetail, that is not going to stay tight very long. Was told by someone who knows that stuff that the military had to resort to welding the damn things on to keep them ridgid back when they used them.
    Gotta keep the cross-bolts tight or the dovetails can shear off, plus the fewer times the dovetails are removed the better (unless you are following your advice and take them off to toss the suckers). Guys at Redfield told me that they had a lot of rings with snapped off dovetails from the opposing bolts getting loose - this isn't going to happen on a .223 but magnums will do it.
    Can't beat Badgers. Or Maximas if you don't want to spend the money.
     
  11. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    06,
    DC brought up another good point. The plastic ADL is nearly impossible to bed and really is very flimsy. I would find another stock for starters.
    The the reloading set up could be a problem but with a factory chamber the throat is way to long for the 55's which are over stabilized in the 10 twist. I would go thr heavier bullet route like the other guys suggested.
    If your stuck on the 55 then an accuracy job to set the barrel back and recut the throat would help a bunch.
    Chris
     
  12. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Chris,
    Tell George to check this issue of the NRA American Hunter, page 112, second paragraph. Some yoyo was shooting one of his rifles and killed some mother-mulies [​IMG]

    I heard in the last couple of years that rifle has accounted for several mulies, five whitetails, three black bears, two huge caribou, plus a couple of coyotes, a wild hog or two and has had a very large timber wolf in its crosshairs at 65 yards - but he was protected and no shot. [​IMG]
     
  13. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys, sorry I haven't posted in a couple days. School started and I work from 3-12 right after school so not much time anymore. The mounts I'm using are the Leupold 1 piece base with matching rings. I always thought Leupold bases/rings were some of the best? Probly not anything for 1000 yard or competition, but then again my maximum range is 600 yards. I am looking hard at the Speer 85g. Seems like a good compromise and could double up as a antelope/mule deer bullet maybe? Definately be a lot better in the wind and energy factors at the longer ranges. I do not debur flash holes. I dont have the tool. I have been meaning to get one though as I have heard/read about the burs which can give inconsistency to powder burn rates. I try to get all the same OAL but sometimes the RCBS seater will throw a couple ones that are .05" or so different from the others. Was thinking maybe of getting a competition seater to help this. I debur the inside of the neck with a Lyman VLD tool and debur the outside also. I weigh each brass and put them into seperate piles. I dont neck turn or do any of that though. My load I'm trying to work on right now is 46.5g of IMR-4895 with a Rem Case, CCI Bench Rest 200 primer, with a OAL of 2.710". The average velocity is 4186fps. The first shot was 4185, 2nd was 4188fps, and the 3rd was 4185 once again. I also went up to 47g and the velocity stayed the same as shot number 1 was 4188fps, 2nd was 4187fps, and the 3rd was 4190fps. It is giving real good consistency with that amount of powder. I have been from 42g up to the MAX for the rifle which was 47.5g when I found the bolt a tad bit hard to lift. Velocity broke 4200fps and actual velocity for 47.5g of IMR-4895 was 4245fps. That load was not that accurate though. I will probly just throw out the idea of using 55g if they wont group consistently though. I kinda wanted to use a coated bullet though, but the 85-100g bullets in .243 aren't blistering speeds either so I should be OK for barrel life. I have not been able to get on shooters.com for quite some time now. I got a e-mail from carpetman saying it was closed down, so I'll take his word for it.

    Chris

    How much is one of your accurizing jobs, and what all do you do? I am just wondering to get an idea of how much I'll have to save up. I know its not cheap from a reputable gunsmith who specializes in that kinda stuff. If it doesn't shoot the heavier bullets any better and I still get a lot of flyers, I will probly be wanting to send it your way.
     
  14. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    '06,
    Don't sweat the mounts, just file away the fact that some old farts have strong opinions that some mounts are better than others.

    Your expectations of 1/2 moa groups from an out of the box rifle might be a little high, but again, so what. The odd 1/2 inch group is nice to see, but really good rifles can perform that well day in and day out. Fact is, that is pretty rare in a factory product. Easy to talk about sub 1/2 minute accuracy, damn hard to maintain it in hunting weight rifles.

    I have several rifles that will do it but the big variable is me, lots of days I am a one inch shooter - big deal, still a lot of fun.

    Enjoy the rifle, get good with it, your skill is as important as how well the rifle shoots. I don't think anyone is born a 1/2 minute shooter, takes skill and lots of practice - plus a good rifle, scope and load.