Neck tension

[BrentM]

Your .5 gr less did almost the same in velocity with 3.7 D. Interesting velocity was almost the same with .5 gr less.
1. Now how did they group. 2. Temp change at start and at finish. 3. What type of powder were you using? Any special work on the cases. Like volume weight brass, case neck cut to a thick and each being the same?
Some powders change over a 1.5fps per degree in temp changes. Some are very stable.
In someways luck you. I am in Mexico-North and will be for a month or so yet. All my reloading equipment is in storage presently. My reloading shack isn't quite finish yet. I got another couple of days to finish it out. Get my reloading gear out of storage and set up.
To **** many irons in the fire. I am retire, and still don't have a lot of free time.

This is adg brass with 2x fired that I was forming to the new AW2 chamber of a 6.5PRC. Brass is not sorted or prep'd. Just anneal, load, and go. Testing 58.7 netted about 15 fps more so I feel like this load is in the middle of the potential node and a good place to play. Also this lot of powder seems a little slower so I have been bumping up the charge to get back 3090-3100 where it seems to love life. As far as groups, I was shooting 522 and most of the rounds were the size of a chap stick, so about .5 moa.

 

[BrentM]

Thanks for the response Brent..

I'm still unsure how to use the mandrel..
Looks like I need to take the expander ball out of my sizing die, then choose a neck bushing .003 less than the loaded round when sizing the case, and then use an expanding mandrel .002 less than the loaded round.

I have expanding mandrels from Sinclair that are supposed to be .001 under bullet diameter.. Not necessarily true, so what mandrels are you using & will they work in the Sinclair die body??

Sinclair neck turning mandrels are .002 less than bullet diameter…Are these what I need to be using instead of the expander mandrels??

Any explanation of the proper procedure that should be used would be greatly appreciated…

Also, what annealer mfg do you recommend?? Can't afford the AMP..

I have sinclair and K&M. I just switched to the K&M due to the set up and ease of using one system and ordering direct. I know sinclair makes mandrels in different sizes so maybe look and midway and brownells and see if they have one in stock. I'd go .002 under bullet diameter and .003 under for the neck bushing and likley call it a day. I am going to play with .002 and .003 for my 6.5 for giggles and see how it goes. Right now I have a load at .003 that showing very low sd.

As far as annealers, I made my own induction style annealer that is bit redneck and lazy combined, I did it cheap with minimal effort to see if it would even work. I love it. I need to improve it now.

 

[Flea21]

I just thought I'd share what I use to process my brass. Hopefully this can help someone here…

For mandrels I run the Porter Precision Products mandrel system. They're nice because you can order whatever you want in .0005+/- sizes.

For annealing, I used to use a drill and torch, then upgraded to a giraud and now upgraded to an amp. The amp is definitely a joy to use with the amp mate and Dillon case feeder.

For turning necks, I use a Forster handheld trimmer with power case holders from century 21. I chuck the case holders in the 3 jaw chuck of a pool cue maintenance large that I have and the neck turner in the tail stock. This makes quick consistent work of the neck turning process.

For uniforming primer pockets, debuting flash holes, etc. I use an RCBS Brass Boss. A nice powered tool that again makes for more streamlined work of these tasks.

For trimming I've used manual, then the little crow version in a drill and then drill press and finally upgraded to a Henderson. The Henderson does a nice deburr and chamfer on the necks as well as trims which saves a bunch of time and is more consistent than I can do them with the brass boss.

For resizing I use Redding type s full length sizers with the recapping rod removed and use a busing that's .004 under what my turned neck thickness plus bullet diameter. Then I expand with a mandrel from the kit I explained above.

There's many ways to do these tasks and tools to do them with. When done though, it gives peace of mind knowing your brass is as consistent as you can make it and results downrange do show up.

 

[VinceMule]

Sometimes you get better run out leaving the expander on the de capping rod when using those Redding Bushing dies, trial and error is the key...assume nothing. The First thing you hear is to remove the expander on the decapping rod, and you can imagine my shock when I introduced MORE run out without the expander ball! Dies are different, check each one with a run out gauge.

 

[Flea21]

Sometimes you get better run out leaving the expander on the de capping rod when using those Redding Bushing dies, trial and error is the key...assume nothing. The First thing you hear is to remove the expander on the decapping rod, and you can imagine my shock when I introduced MORE run out without the expander ball! Dies are different, check each one with a run out gauge.

I experienced the opposite. I expand in a seperate step with a mandrel and runout is almost nothing. You're right though, everyone is different and gets different results. The press can also have something to do with things too. Whatever works for you, run with it is what I say.

 

[BrentM]

I experienced the opposite. I expand in a seperate step with a mandrel and runout is almost nothing. You're right though, everyone is different and gets different results. The press can also have something to do with things too. Whatever works for you, run with it is what I say.

Run out is also a funny thing in that somethings a rifle system can tolerate a lot more run out then we find acceptable in our minds. However, I went to a mandrel and floating seater die to eliminate run out issues and never touch my concentricity tools anymore.

 

[Flea21]

Run out is also a funny thing in that somethings a rifle system can tolerate a lot more run out then we find acceptable in our minds. However, I went to a mandrel and floating seater die to eliminate run out issues and never touch my concentricity tools anymore.

Yea that's true too. All rifles are custom with specific tolerances. That's probably why I go that extra mile of brass care plus I'm just a nerd like that.. lol

 

[VinceMule]

I experienced the opposite. I expand in a seperate step with a mandrel and runout is almost nothing. You're right though, everyone is different and gets different results. The press can also have something to do with things too. Whatever works for you, run with it is what I say.

I have found the same thing with certain Comp and S dies, you have to check them out with a run out(concentricity)gauge.

 

[SteveBurton]

I have sinclair and K&M. I just switched to the K&M due to the set up and ease of using one system and ordering direct. I know sinclair makes mandrels in different sizes so maybe look and midway and brownells and see if they have one in stock. I'd go .002 under bullet diameter and .003 under for the neck bushing and likley call it a day. I am going to play with .002 and .003 for my 6.5 for giggles and see how it goes. Right now I have a load at .003 that showing very low sd.

As far as annealers, I made my own induction style annealer that is bit redneck and lazy combined, I did it cheap with minimal effort to see if it would even work. I love it. I need to improve it now.

I used the K&M system for a while. I liked it but have switched to 21st Century mandrels which come in 0.0005 sizes. I bought the full set in a couple of calibers and pin gauges to go along with it. Keep them all in a MTM ammo box. Unfortunately, 21st Century increased their prices last year and a full set is pricey now. The 21st Century mandrel holder allows the mandrel to float whereas the K&M is fixed solid with a screw.

 

[BrentM]

I used the K&M system for a while. I liked it but have switched to 21st Century mandrels which come in 0.0005 sizes. I bought the full set in a couple of calibers and pin gauges to go along with it. Keep them all in a MTM ammo box. Unfortunately, 21st Century increased their prices last year and a full set is pricey now. The 21st Century mandrel holder allows the mandrel to float whereas the K&M is fixed solid with a screw.

View attachment 555182

Nice. I see K&M does .0005 too. I do like the floating sinclair but since I use a Forster coax the issue isn't an issue any more.

 

[swampbug]

Lots of good responses.
You must start with good brass, not range pickup brass.
You should anneal after every firing.
My method is
Measure loaded OD
Subtract .004 for bushing size
For mandrel size, take bullet size minus .002
Brass will have spring back of .0005
For general hunting, with good brass, IMO, turning necks is not necessary.
I use guage pins .0005 under mandrel size to test necks if I didn't load them immediately after sizing.

 

[Mikecr]

You should anneal after every firing.

Why?
Because of load development with soft brass, having low neck tension?
Because of over-working brass through excess sizing?

Let me suggest minimal sizing and mild process annealing every 30-50 reloading cycles.
You will never get more consistent than this.

 

[swampbug]

Yes, I size and clean (in a vibratory tumbler) before annealing. That makes sure there isn't any lube left inside the case neck when I seat the bullet.

Uhm,
The idea is to anneal before sizing, IMO.

 

[BrentM]

Why?
Because of load development with soft brass, having low neck tension?
Because of over-working brass through excess sizing?

Let me suggest minimal sizing and mild process annealing every 30-50 reloading cycles.
You will never get more consistent than this.

do you get 30-50 reloads out of brass? That's impressive. I think annealing after each firing is excessive however, with a proper annealing process the brass will be consistent.