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Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
That is a normal sized doe for Wyoming. It probably weighs maybe 90-100 pounds.
This is a 15 inch buck which is large for Wyoming and weighs perhaps 120 - 140 pounds. I don't really know because we never weigh them.
At 535 yards the exit wound from the 200 gr Wildcat is still very large going from ribcage to rib cage but missing a rib going in.
Here is an exit wound at 910 yards of the 200 grain wildcat hitting a rib going in and angling back into the paunch. The paunch puts up more resistance than lung tissue and the bullet really has something to work with then and gives a six inch exit wound. As I said earlier an antelope is not put together for toughness. It is flimsily constructed with a big hollow lung cage for speed and it rips open very easily.
Just like with artificial substitutes such as paper, gels etc, a person must consider the construction of the animal that the bullet was tested on and what the construction is of the ultimate animal and have some experience with each. That is why I posted the picture of the deer and the antelope with the 240 Wby and 115 Berger. That relationship hold true for the 200 grain Wildcat moving from antelope to deer to elk. Being as both bullets are based upon the J4 jacket and a relatively soft lead core and using high sectional density to achieve extreme penetration and lethality, it is not too surprising that there is some similarity between the bullets. If you give away sectional density you have to compensate with something and I used to shoot Nosler partitions a lot because they compensate with the partition controlling weight loss and ultimately momentum.
This is a 15 inch buck which is large for Wyoming and weighs perhaps 120 - 140 pounds. I don't really know because we never weigh them.
At 535 yards the exit wound from the 200 gr Wildcat is still very large going from ribcage to rib cage but missing a rib going in.
Here is an exit wound at 910 yards of the 200 grain wildcat hitting a rib going in and angling back into the paunch. The paunch puts up more resistance than lung tissue and the bullet really has something to work with then and gives a six inch exit wound. As I said earlier an antelope is not put together for toughness. It is flimsily constructed with a big hollow lung cage for speed and it rips open very easily.
Just like with artificial substitutes such as paper, gels etc, a person must consider the construction of the animal that the bullet was tested on and what the construction is of the ultimate animal and have some experience with each. That is why I posted the picture of the deer and the antelope with the 240 Wby and 115 Berger. That relationship hold true for the 200 grain Wildcat moving from antelope to deer to elk. Being as both bullets are based upon the J4 jacket and a relatively soft lead core and using high sectional density to achieve extreme penetration and lethality, it is not too surprising that there is some similarity between the bullets. If you give away sectional density you have to compensate with something and I used to shoot Nosler partitions a lot because they compensate with the partition controlling weight loss and ultimately momentum.
DesertDiesel
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2006
- Messages
- 48
My taxidermist is going to hate those Wildcat bullets....or any bullet that punches a 6" hole in the cape.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I have watched this post as well as the others on the testing of the HAT bullets but have added very little to the posts really because I have no dog in the fight but I have seen a couple things that bothered me.
1. In the comparisions I have read between the HAT and SMK, I beleive most of the 338 comparisions were between the 265 HAT and 300 gr SMK. I have the 265 gr HAT in shop. I assume they are Gen I bullets. THey are very slightly longer then the 300 gr SMK. While BC may be slightly higher, it is not going to be dramatically higher simply because two bullets that have similiar bullet designs will have similiar BC values.
Now before some ballistic expert gets all tied up, I realize ogive and meplat will effect BC but not DRAMATICALLY for same length bullets that both have relatively efficent bullet designs, ballistically.
My question is, in the testing I have seen, why are the 265 gr HAT bullets loaded to the same velocity as the 300 gr SMK????? THey should be able to be driven to 100-150 fps faster EASILY.
I tested some prototype aluminum tipped bullets that were 265 gr a couple years ago in my 338 AX and 338 AM. In the 338 AX, I could drive them to 3100 fps compared to the 300 gr SMK which I could hit 2950 fps with max loads.
In the 338 AM, the 300 gr SMK could be driven to 3420 fps with decent case life. THe prototype 265 gr bullet hit 3550 fps easily.
Why are the HAT bullets limited to the same velocity as the 300 gr SMK, this should not be. If your going to put an aluminum tipped on a long range bullet, why settle for the same length bullet as the current standard. Magazine limits, possibly but single shot is generally accepted for long range hunting. Baring surface issues, possibly but with proper design, that is not a problem.
The prototype 265 gr AT RBBTs I tested has identical baring surface to the 300 gr SMK but were roughly 0.220" longer then the SMK. Surpisingly, the bullet drop derived BC was 0.980 at 3000 fps and 0.910 at 3550 fps. Why the drop in BC with the added velocity, not sure but those are the numbers I had to use to predict bullet drop over 2000 yards.
My belief, the HAT bullets use very heavy jackets instead of using a tapered jacket which is really needed for an aluminum tipped bullet to be a successful big game bullet. The bullets I tested were tapered jacketed bullets, much thinner at the ogive and DRAMATICALLY thicker in the case body of the bullet which allowed excellent bullet expansion at long range but at close range where the wedge effect of the aluminum tip would be dramatic trying to turn that bullet inside out, the dramatically heavier jacket in the body of the bullet would control and survive these impact strains.
In my opinion, if a medium to large caliber bullet with a large aluminum tip does not have a properly designed tapered jacket, you will not get the good all around results we are looking for in a big game hunting bullet.
2. Bullet drop has been overly focused on here. Drop is easy to figure and we can easily accurately predict bullet drop. So to me, BC is not a big deal as far as bullet drop. For wind drift, certainly high BC is what we want but as mentioned, if the bullet does not perform on game, whats the point. Thats why the SMK works very well most of the time. It expands well and its got a high enough sectional density to penetrate most big game at most distances very well, even at higher velocity impacts.
3. Cost. I would never tell anyone what to charge, and I will say that if the product is quality, many will be willing to pay more for a quality product but the cost of these bullets seem very high to me personally. The prototype bullets I was testing were to be roughly 2/3 the price of the HAT bullets and we were thinking this would be very high for customers to swallow.
The HAT bullets are siginifcantly more spendy then even the VLD solid design bullets which have been known to be the most expensive bullets out there on average. With brass and lead costs increasing this may change and may already have changed but I still wonder what the reasoning is for the extreme cost of these bullets, especially when I Can get 750 gr A-Max 50 cal bullet for only slightly more per bullet then these HAT bullets.
I understand custom bullet costs, but these are pretty high for even custom bullets and I personally believe that this will hurt their success more then anything else.
4. I have never seen a product that has been reported on so widely by really only one user trying to prove the performance of these bullets since I have gotten into this business.
I can not fault that because I pushed my wildcats, rifles and the Wildcat bullets very hard and still do when I have time. That said, after a bit of time, the results started pouring in on the wildcat bullets performance not only ballistically but also terminally. Instead of one voice pushing bullets, there were dozens or more.
5. Finally, we are comparing bullet holes in pronghorns and I am not sure why. Impact wounds and exit wounds are a very poor way to figure out bullet performance. THe reason, pronghorns have extremely thin hides and they are small structured animals. I have killed dozens of pronghorns with rifles and handguns chambered in rounds varying from the 223 Rem up to the 338 Allen Magnum.
A 22-250 with a 50 to 60 gr bullet loaded to 3500-3600 fps will leave an exit wound as large or larger then even my huge 338 Allen Magnum.
Just this year my father took a very nice pronghorn at 300 yards with a 25-284 I made for him. He is shooting the 100 gr Bonded Core Wildcat HP at 3300 fps. The exit holes were as large or larger then the ones posted already on this topic.
Several things come into play when dealing with exit wounds.
- Proximaty of bone impacts to the hide going in or going out
- The thickness and elasiticty of the hide
- The exit velocity of the projectile
- The diameter of the projectile
- The fragmentation of the projectile on exit(how many pieces)
- Resistance of the game animal to that bullet
I have shot pronghorns with a rifle/load combo that resulted in 6-7" exit wounds but when that same load was used on whitetail deer that weighed nearly 3 times as much, the exit wound was roughly 1" in diameter.
I have shot pronghorns with my 7mm AM with 160 gr Accubond at 3450 fps which opened them up like they had been hit by an atom bomb. I have taken whitetail with that same bullet with again, conventional 1 to 1.5" exit wounds. I just took a bull moose this fall at 150-250 yards for three shots and all exit wounds were roughly 1" in diameter.
If your looking at the exit wounds to compare effectiveness on big game, you would say the 7mm AM is effective on pronghorns, marginally on whitetails and probably not very effective on moose. That could hardly be true.
Simply put, any bullet will open up a pronghorn in certain situations. I do not believe this is a fair comparision even if you have a known standard for comparision because virturally all high velocity bullets can cause severe exit wounds on pronghorns.
Just my opinions.
I would like to see the HAT bullets expand more consistantly at all velocities. I would also like to see a higher BC if I am going to pay this much for bullets and to that point, I would like to see them more cost effective but that is not my call. I am sure many say my rifles are over priced but most have told me that they are underpriced in comparision to many other top shops.
Anyway, nuff said on my end.
1. In the comparisions I have read between the HAT and SMK, I beleive most of the 338 comparisions were between the 265 HAT and 300 gr SMK. I have the 265 gr HAT in shop. I assume they are Gen I bullets. THey are very slightly longer then the 300 gr SMK. While BC may be slightly higher, it is not going to be dramatically higher simply because two bullets that have similiar bullet designs will have similiar BC values.
Now before some ballistic expert gets all tied up, I realize ogive and meplat will effect BC but not DRAMATICALLY for same length bullets that both have relatively efficent bullet designs, ballistically.
My question is, in the testing I have seen, why are the 265 gr HAT bullets loaded to the same velocity as the 300 gr SMK????? THey should be able to be driven to 100-150 fps faster EASILY.
I tested some prototype aluminum tipped bullets that were 265 gr a couple years ago in my 338 AX and 338 AM. In the 338 AX, I could drive them to 3100 fps compared to the 300 gr SMK which I could hit 2950 fps with max loads.
In the 338 AM, the 300 gr SMK could be driven to 3420 fps with decent case life. THe prototype 265 gr bullet hit 3550 fps easily.
Why are the HAT bullets limited to the same velocity as the 300 gr SMK, this should not be. If your going to put an aluminum tipped on a long range bullet, why settle for the same length bullet as the current standard. Magazine limits, possibly but single shot is generally accepted for long range hunting. Baring surface issues, possibly but with proper design, that is not a problem.
The prototype 265 gr AT RBBTs I tested has identical baring surface to the 300 gr SMK but were roughly 0.220" longer then the SMK. Surpisingly, the bullet drop derived BC was 0.980 at 3000 fps and 0.910 at 3550 fps. Why the drop in BC with the added velocity, not sure but those are the numbers I had to use to predict bullet drop over 2000 yards.
My belief, the HAT bullets use very heavy jackets instead of using a tapered jacket which is really needed for an aluminum tipped bullet to be a successful big game bullet. The bullets I tested were tapered jacketed bullets, much thinner at the ogive and DRAMATICALLY thicker in the case body of the bullet which allowed excellent bullet expansion at long range but at close range where the wedge effect of the aluminum tip would be dramatic trying to turn that bullet inside out, the dramatically heavier jacket in the body of the bullet would control and survive these impact strains.
In my opinion, if a medium to large caliber bullet with a large aluminum tip does not have a properly designed tapered jacket, you will not get the good all around results we are looking for in a big game hunting bullet.
2. Bullet drop has been overly focused on here. Drop is easy to figure and we can easily accurately predict bullet drop. So to me, BC is not a big deal as far as bullet drop. For wind drift, certainly high BC is what we want but as mentioned, if the bullet does not perform on game, whats the point. Thats why the SMK works very well most of the time. It expands well and its got a high enough sectional density to penetrate most big game at most distances very well, even at higher velocity impacts.
3. Cost. I would never tell anyone what to charge, and I will say that if the product is quality, many will be willing to pay more for a quality product but the cost of these bullets seem very high to me personally. The prototype bullets I was testing were to be roughly 2/3 the price of the HAT bullets and we were thinking this would be very high for customers to swallow.
The HAT bullets are siginifcantly more spendy then even the VLD solid design bullets which have been known to be the most expensive bullets out there on average. With brass and lead costs increasing this may change and may already have changed but I still wonder what the reasoning is for the extreme cost of these bullets, especially when I Can get 750 gr A-Max 50 cal bullet for only slightly more per bullet then these HAT bullets.
I understand custom bullet costs, but these are pretty high for even custom bullets and I personally believe that this will hurt their success more then anything else.
4. I have never seen a product that has been reported on so widely by really only one user trying to prove the performance of these bullets since I have gotten into this business.
I can not fault that because I pushed my wildcats, rifles and the Wildcat bullets very hard and still do when I have time. That said, after a bit of time, the results started pouring in on the wildcat bullets performance not only ballistically but also terminally. Instead of one voice pushing bullets, there were dozens or more.
5. Finally, we are comparing bullet holes in pronghorns and I am not sure why. Impact wounds and exit wounds are a very poor way to figure out bullet performance. THe reason, pronghorns have extremely thin hides and they are small structured animals. I have killed dozens of pronghorns with rifles and handguns chambered in rounds varying from the 223 Rem up to the 338 Allen Magnum.
A 22-250 with a 50 to 60 gr bullet loaded to 3500-3600 fps will leave an exit wound as large or larger then even my huge 338 Allen Magnum.
Just this year my father took a very nice pronghorn at 300 yards with a 25-284 I made for him. He is shooting the 100 gr Bonded Core Wildcat HP at 3300 fps. The exit holes were as large or larger then the ones posted already on this topic.
Several things come into play when dealing with exit wounds.
- Proximaty of bone impacts to the hide going in or going out
- The thickness and elasiticty of the hide
- The exit velocity of the projectile
- The diameter of the projectile
- The fragmentation of the projectile on exit(how many pieces)
- Resistance of the game animal to that bullet
I have shot pronghorns with a rifle/load combo that resulted in 6-7" exit wounds but when that same load was used on whitetail deer that weighed nearly 3 times as much, the exit wound was roughly 1" in diameter.
I have shot pronghorns with my 7mm AM with 160 gr Accubond at 3450 fps which opened them up like they had been hit by an atom bomb. I have taken whitetail with that same bullet with again, conventional 1 to 1.5" exit wounds. I just took a bull moose this fall at 150-250 yards for three shots and all exit wounds were roughly 1" in diameter.
If your looking at the exit wounds to compare effectiveness on big game, you would say the 7mm AM is effective on pronghorns, marginally on whitetails and probably not very effective on moose. That could hardly be true.
Simply put, any bullet will open up a pronghorn in certain situations. I do not believe this is a fair comparision even if you have a known standard for comparision because virturally all high velocity bullets can cause severe exit wounds on pronghorns.
Just my opinions.
I would like to see the HAT bullets expand more consistantly at all velocities. I would also like to see a higher BC if I am going to pay this much for bullets and to that point, I would like to see them more cost effective but that is not my call. I am sure many say my rifles are over priced but most have told me that they are underpriced in comparision to many other top shops.
Anyway, nuff said on my end.
Kirby,
The 265 hats that I have are running 3400 fps in the rifle you built me, and the BC based upon my testing out to 1400 is .91. As far as accuracy is concerned they are at least as accurate, if not more so, than the 300SMK. This is a light load IMO 146gr of H50BMG and primer pockets never seem to loosen.
(BTW that gun you built me is really kick butt
)
You are right these bullets are expensive. I was so excited by your posts on the 265 wildcats that I was willing to pay it. I will continue to pay it if the perform on game. It isnt like I shoot this gun enough to break the bank.
The 265 hats that I have are running 3400 fps in the rifle you built me, and the BC based upon my testing out to 1400 is .91. As far as accuracy is concerned they are at least as accurate, if not more so, than the 300SMK. This is a light load IMO 146gr of H50BMG and primer pockets never seem to loosen.
(BTW that gun you built me is really kick butt
)You are right these bullets are expensive. I was so excited by your posts on the 265 wildcats that I was willing to pay it. I will continue to pay it if the perform on game. It isnt like I shoot this gun enough to break the bank.
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Kirby, the reason I mentioned it in the first post was as a courtesy to Eddie. He has some choice in the "exotic" he shoots. If he selects some fragile little African antelope to shoot, then it will be not much of a test of the bullet and most of us will not know much about how to interpret the pictures. I would rather mention it before he shoots than whine and complain afterwards. Being as I had plenty of pictures to prove my point, I posted them rather than just run my mouth. If he shoots a garden variety hog then many of us know something about bullet performance on a hog. They are pretty tough and will make a bullet work hard to do its job
The second post was because LV asked how much the antelope weighed. I posted the pictures to demonstrate that antelope weight has almost nothing to do with exit holes and that range has almost nothing to do with exit holes on an antelope.
Your conclusion and my conclusion are the same- Some Animals Are Not Good Test Subjects For Some Bullets. Blowing an eight inch hole through some Thompsons gazelle is not IMHO much of a test for a high velocity 338 bullet or even a slow velocity one for that matter. Plus the cape is going to have a really big hole in it.
Just to say it again. My first post was just courtesy to Eddie to remind him of what he already knows but may not have thought about. In the end it is his money and his choices and his trip.
BB,
Never assume I know anything as you may be disapointed.
I suspect whitetail and axis does will be the primary targets. It would be cool if they had something with some real mass to it, but I do not think that is the case. A big mouflan may be pretty dense? They do have a rep for being tough.
BTW been meaning to ask if Quantico is still shooting? I am going to be in the area for New Years hunting and doing some work training for at least a week. When is the next match?
esshup
Well-Known Member
First off, I want to clarify that I'm not taking any "side", I am just posting this to hopefully learn something.
I see a reference to RPM, and bullet impact speeds in the testing. From my way of thinking, if the guns that are used to test the bullets have the same rate of twist, and the impact speeds are the same, then the RPM should be the same as well, correct?
Here's the way that I look at it.
Speed won't change the rotation of the bullet if the bullet is fired from barrels with the same rate of twist. (lets take gain twist barrels out of this equasion) 1 revolution in 10" is 1:10 no matter how fast the bullet is thrown. Yes, the RPM will change, but it only changes if the impact distance changes as well. (I'm also discounting any "skidding" of the bullet in the bore.)
I realize that the rotation of the bullet will have some effect on how the bullet expands, but has anybody been able to test and document just how much of an effect it actually does have?
Or should the term RPM be changed to RPD (revolutions per distance) when talking about bullet spin?
I see a reference to RPM, and bullet impact speeds in the testing. From my way of thinking, if the guns that are used to test the bullets have the same rate of twist, and the impact speeds are the same, then the RPM should be the same as well, correct?
Here's the way that I look at it.
Speed won't change the rotation of the bullet if the bullet is fired from barrels with the same rate of twist. (lets take gain twist barrels out of this equasion) 1 revolution in 10" is 1:10 no matter how fast the bullet is thrown. Yes, the RPM will change, but it only changes if the impact distance changes as well. (I'm also discounting any "skidding" of the bullet in the bore.)
I realize that the rotation of the bullet will have some effect on how the bullet expands, but has anybody been able to test and document just how much of an effect it actually does have?
Or should the term RPM be changed to RPD (revolutions per distance) when talking about bullet spin?
James Jones
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Messages
- 2,854
"eddybo" , you got a calculated BC of .910" for the 265gr HAT's ?
What is the BC of a 300 gr SMK??
I have some friends that shoot 338 Lapua and are intrested in the higher BC bullets.
I'm intrested in some of the 180gr HATs to try at long range out of a 308 , has anybody tested these yet to get an accurate BC
What is the BC of a 300 gr SMK??
I have some friends that shoot 338 Lapua and are intrested in the higher BC bullets.
I'm intrested in some of the 180gr HATs to try at long range out of a 308 , has anybody tested these yet to get an accurate BC
James, I can only say what works to plug into exbal to match my drops at the given velocities and distances, .71 works for the 180s and they are very accurate at 2850fps. My drop chart with it out to 800 is about as close as I have ever seen.
With the 265s I would say that with the information fed into exbal it is very close out to 1400 yards. I cant say that that is the correct number it is just the number that I was able to plug into exbal to get everything to work given the information that I knew. I feel confident enough to take a long poke at an animal using that number. I may have some other setting askew but I am almost positive that is the number I am using. I got a new phone so my old phone is now my dedicated shooting PDA I will look when I get home to make sure.
With the 265s I would say that with the information fed into exbal it is very close out to 1400 yards. I cant say that that is the correct number it is just the number that I was able to plug into exbal to get everything to work given the information that I knew. I feel confident enough to take a long poke at an animal using that number. I may have some other setting askew but I am almost positive that is the number I am using. I got a new phone so my old phone is now my dedicated shooting PDA I will look when I get home to make sure.
L
Lightvarmint
Guest
One is in the thread about the harvest of the elk and the other is in the thread of the reference to the 300 SMK.
Lightvarmint
L
Lightvarmint
Guest
Hello again,
At 3000 fps, the bullet rpm out of a 1-8" twist is 270,000 rpm and at 3000 fps the bullet rpm out of a 1-10" twist is 216,000 rpm.
At 2500 fps, the bullet rpm out of a 1-8" twist is 225,000 rpm and at 2500 fps the bullet rpm out of a 1-10" twist is 180,000 rpm.
In reality and in some cases, you can over come lack of twist with more speed. But, you are on or closer to the ragged edge. All the bullet needs is enough spin to create a stable environment. During the bullet flight, the velocity decrease is not in the same proportion as the decay of the rpm. RPM decays at a much lesser rate than the what one sees as the bullet slows to a halt. And, at the point where the bullet's flight is overcome by gravity and actually halts in flight over land and touches the earth, it still has gyroscopic spin. If this were not the case, we would not be able to shoot longer distances without fin stabilization.
When the bullet starts to deform and expand, it acts very much like a drill bit. It actually cuts a hole and if it deforms enough, it can spin portions of the jacket throughout the material that caused it to deform. Some folks even use metal detectors to locate the pieces of schrapnel. Rotational spin actually aids in creating the wound channel.
Finally, the actual bullet rotational spin is what causes the bullet to be stable. Sort of like a top that you spin on the floor. The faster it spins the more stable the top. Basically, bullets follow this same principle.
Anyway, some folks don't realize the speed at which these projectiles we shoot actually rotate. Even more interesting is that they get accelerated over a short distance...... Just think of the torque that they see when traveling down the barrel.
Lightvarmint
Man if all your posts were like that I would like you. Very respectful and informative quotation of a viable theory. Are you on your meds today
In all sincerity good post.
In all sincerity good post.
esshup
Well-Known Member
LV:
Thanks. I see clearly now! Well, clearer anyway. So RPM IS a valid measurement (i.e. helping us figure out how to stabilize a bullet).
Is there any rule of thumb on figuring out what rpm it takes to stabilize a certain bullet?
I know what you are saying about the bullet torque. In shooting a 110g .25cal Accubond @ 3400 fps in my 10 1/2# Vanguard, the rifle will torque the left bipod leg up off the shooting bench a good 2". It doesn't have a brake on it. My .257 Weatherby that does have a brake doesn't do that, but the bullet is 130g and has less MV (3250 fps). That one is a MarkV and weighs less than the Vanguard. I'm unsure whether that is a function of the brake or just the bullet/MV. (on the MarkV) Both guns are 1:10 twist
Thanks. I see clearly now! Well, clearer anyway.
So RPM IS a valid measurement (i.e. helping us figure out how to stabilize a bullet).Is there any rule of thumb on figuring out what rpm it takes to stabilize a certain bullet?
I know what you are saying about the bullet torque. In shooting a 110g .25cal Accubond @ 3400 fps in my 10 1/2# Vanguard, the rifle will torque the left bipod leg up off the shooting bench a good 2". It doesn't have a brake on it. My .257 Weatherby that does have a brake doesn't do that, but the bullet is 130g and has less MV (3250 fps). That one is a MarkV and weighs less than the Vanguard. I'm unsure whether that is a function of the brake or just the bullet/MV. (on the MarkV) Both guns are 1:10 twist
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