My .35 Whelen Re-Bore Project

[MoreSalsa]

Based on feedback from my posts this summer (https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/best-path-to-an-accurate-35-whelen.303548/ and https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/re-boring-30-06-to-35-whelen.305900/) (thank you everyone), I set out to have my old Howa 1500 30-06 re-bored by JES to .35 Whelen. The desire for the Whelen arose from hunting caliber requirements where I am going to hunt deer.

Some of the posters in that thread wanted to hear how it turned out, so I thought I'd share, and also hear any thoughts anyone would like to offer. Not out of the woods yet, but had my first day at the range today.

I had Jesse do his typical re-bore, which I believe is a 1:14'' twist. I explained that I am not a hand loader and therefore wanted to go with whatever would give me the best chance at shooting most ammo okay (and I'm not planning on shooting any exceptionally heavy bullets out of it that would require the faster twist rates). The goal was to be able to reliably shoot deer out to 300 yards.

After I bolted the barreled action back into the stock and got the scope on (levelling the rifle was a pain with basically no useable flat surface on the gun), I gave it a good clean as part of a barrel break-in process, using mostly the same equipment I used with my 30-06 (same jag, rod, and bore guide, but I used a .357 pistol brush). I wasn't sure if Jesse had test fired it but looked like he had as a LOT of blue/green came out. I was surprised at how much.

Took it to the 100 yard range today and started with the heavier of the two factory ammo loads that I have (250 grain Core Lokt - I also have 200 grain), with the idea that these would be slower and not dump as much fouling in the barrel. I put three down the pipe and then cleaned again. Extremely dirty (both carbon and copper that did not seem to want to go away). I gave it a good cleaning but with there still being green when I stopped.

By this time I had the scope pretty well sighted in, with my third almost exactly where I wanted it (1.5'' high at 100y).

Shot two more three-shot groups, a bit rushed since I wanted to get as far along in the barrel break-in as possible and didn't have the full day. First one was 2 3/8'' mostly do to a flier. Second was a bit under 1.5'' with two touching.

Did a quick cleaning and only had time for two more shots ... hit right next to each other, a little more than half an inch.

Only other thing to note is that one round stuck in the chamber pretty well. Had to use some elbow grease to open the bolt. Other than that no issues. If that raises any alarm bells, please let me know.

Recoil is definitely more than the 6.5 Creedmoor I have been shooting of late, and I certainly noticed it when I had forgotten to put the limbsaver back on the stock for the first two shots. But if I situate the butt well on my body it doesn't punch too hard.

Anyway, so far happy with the accuracy from the old Core Lokt ammo. I haven't tried the 200 grain rounds yet but hoping they are as accurate, as I prefer their ballistics and maybe they will recoil less.

I am a bit miffed by how dirty the bore gets ... and stays. It is so dirty that I wonder whether barrel break in is going to do much. The green is so persistent that I'm going to try to check to make sure there is no copper in the jag or brush. I thought they were both aluminum, and they look like aluminum. I also wonder if the use of a .30 caliber rod and jag might play into it ... not scrubbing the copper as well as a caliber-correct rod and jag? Maybe it's something that I should not worry about. Anyone have any thoughts there?

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

Based on feedback from my posts this summer (https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/best-path-to-an-accurate-35-whelen.303548/ and https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/re-boring-30-06-to-35-whelen.305900/) (thank you everyone), I set out to have my old Howa 1500 30-06 re-bored by JES to .35 Whelen. The desire for the Whelen arose from hunting caliber requirements where I am going to hunt deer.

Some of the posters in that thread wanted to hear how it turned out, so I thought I'd share, and also hear any thoughts anyone would like to share. Not out of the woods yet, but had my first day at the range today.

I had Jesse do his typical re-bore, which I believe is a 1:14'' twist. I explained that I am not a hand loader and therefore wanted to go with whatever would give me the best chance at shooting most ammo okay (and I'm not planning on shooting any exceptionally heavy bullets out of it that would require the faster twist rates). The goal was to be able to reliably shoot deer out to 300 yards.

After I bolted the barreled action back into the stock and got the scope on (levelling the rifle was a pain with basically no useable flat surface on the gun), I gave it a good clean as part of a barrel break-in process, using mostly the same equipment I used with my 30-06 (same jag, rod, and bore guide, but I used a .357 pistol brush). I wasn't sure if Jesse had test fired it but looked like he had as a LOT of blue/green came out. I was surprised at how much.

Took it to the 100 yard range today and started with the heavier of the two factory ammo loads that I have (250 grain - I also have 200 grain), with the idea that these would be slower and not dump as much fouling in the barrel. I put three down the pipe and then cleaned again. Extremely dirty (both carbon and copper that did not seem to want to go away). I gave it a good cleaning but with there still being green when I stopped.

By this time I had the scope pretty well sighted in, with my third almost exactly where I wanted it (1.5'' high at 100y).

Shot two more three-shot groups, a bit rushed since I wanted to get as far along in the barrel break-in as possible and didn't have the full day. First one was 2 3/8'' with a flier. Second was a bit under 1.5'' with two touching.

Did a quick cleaning and only had time for two more shots ... hit right next to each other, a little more than half an inch.

Recoil is definitely more than the 6.5 Creedmoor I have been shooting of late, and I certainly noticed it when I had forgotten to put the limbsaver back on the stock for the first two shots. But if I situate the stock well on my body it doesn't punch too hard.

Anyway, so far happy with the accuracy from the old Core Lokt ammo. I haven't tried the 200 grain rounds yet but hoping they are as accurate, as I prefer their ballistics and maybe they will recoil less.

I am a bit miffed by how dirty the bore gets. It is so dirty that I wonder whether barrel break in is going to do much. The green is so persistent that I'm going to try to check to make sure there is no copper in the jag or brush. I thought they were both aluminum, and they look like aluminum. Maybe it's something that I should not worry about. Anyone have any thoughts there?

Thanks for the information. Have not knew anyone that had really good results with a re-bore. I have a good friend that owns a Rifle & Pistol Manufacturing Company and asked him years ago if taking say a shot out barrel in say a .224 and Drilling/Rifling to a .264 would it save any money for the cost of the barrel material and still shoot GOOD. He said they tried it just to do it, but not cost effective and the barrels did not shoot as well as a new Drilled/Rifled Barrel.
Glad that you got good results with re-boring your barrel.
I don't understand why you are having COPPER build up, but since it is a new rifled barrel, maybe just needs more break-in.
Keep us posted
Thanks
Len

 

[TRexF16]

MoreSalsa,
The copper fouling you are experiencing is typical of a JES rebore. Though they generally shoot very well, the bores come back pretty rough, and the lands really pick up the copper from the bullets. They will smooth up a bit with use.
Get yourself some Wipe-Out if you don't already have some. You will be amazed. No scrubbing required and the copper comes right out. While you're at it get some Dyna Bore Coat too. That helps the JES rebores a bit too. And you will want some JB bore paste to prep the bore for the DBC. All this stuff, plus more shooting, will smooth it up.

I think it'll be a fine shooter once it breaks in a bit. My JES 9.3x62 is a winner.
Rex

 

[MoreSalsa]

Thanks TRex. I'll look into that. Right now using BoreTech Eliminator and their Copper Eliminator. Do you think it's worth it to try to do a lot of cleaning after the early shots for a break-in?

 

[TRexF16]

I don't hold myself out as an expert, but it seems if you want the action of the bullets to help smooth the lands, they should be riding on the lands, not on the layer of copper left behind from the last shooting session. So I would suggest cleaning it to bare steel every after every trip to the range.

Question - Do you have to brush or run multiple patches with the Copper Eliminator? With the Wipe-Out, you just wet the bore with the foam and let it sit.

Don't let the barrel being a heavy fouler bother you. #1 - it'll get better over time, and if you DBC it after a hundred rounds or so and, #2 - it can shoot very well even if it's a fouler. Despite being rough as a cob, with several boo boos where the rifling cutter slipped a bit visible with the borescope, my 9.3 shot lights out from the get-go. To paraphrase Mr. Gump's mamma, "Pretty is as pretty does"

Cheers,
Rex

 

[MoreSalsa]

I don't know if I "have to" run multiple patches but I do, per the particular procedure that I chose to follow (Christensen arms' barrel break in procedure). Basically as long as I continue to run soaked patches, the copper continues to come out. Obviously dry patches mop it up and become clean, but if I run another wet patch, the green comes back. This is not true of the black fouling ... plenty of that at the start but it goes away. Brushing with some solvent also brings out a lot of green, as I'd expect it to.

I interpret what you are saying as the the Wipe-Out will pull all of that copper out in one round. That would be nice, but what was concerning me more is not how long it takes to get it all out, but why there is so much of it. With my Seekins Precision rifle, I had a hard time even getting any copper out of the barrel after initial shots, so the amount of copper from the JES rebored barrel was surprising to me. But sounds like I shouldn't worry about it too much ... make an effort to help the bullets work on the imperfections and go from there.

 

[TRexF16]

I should clarify - I'm not saying the Wipe-out will get out all the copper in one soak. It may take multiple soaks. But you will not have to do any scrubbing. Shoot the foam into the bore, and let it sit overnight. Push a dry patch through the next morning. Comes out very blue, probably. Reapply and let it soak until nighttime, then push through a dry patch. Should come out less blue. Repeat until it comes out "no blue." There is essentially no work involved, just the soak time.
Techniques.
- Turn the rifle 90-180 degrees each application so the solution that "pools" in the downward portion of the barrel is in a different part of the barrel each time (for example, lay the rifle down with the ejection port facing upward for the first soak, and flip the rifle with the ejection port facing downward for the second).
- Get a short (6" or so) piece of plastic tubing from the hardware store that is a tight fit over the nozzle of the Wipe-Out can. Insert this into the chamber until it snugs up into the throat, then give a short squirt to let the foam fill the barrel.
- When you pull the plastic tube out of the chamber after the step above, immediately push a little wad of paper towel into the chamber to keep any of the Wipe-Out from leaking out that way (it will harm classic oil finishes on wood stocks - don't want it getting on the wood)

After a hundred shots or so (earlier is fine too), consider the DBC treatment. Do a search on the 24HourCampfire forum for all you can stand to read on the DBC process and its results. Most important parts:
1) get the barrel no-kidding clean to bare steel first. Follow John Barsness' instructions which you will find in your search. (his handle is Mule Deer on the 24CF forum.)
2) make sure the barrel is completely degreased after cleaning to bare steel.
3) the rest of the process is easy.

Best of luck.
Rex

 

[Ol' Red]

I am curious if fire lapping would help here. Following to see your results on this rebore.

 

[Leaf Litter]

I hunt a 35 caliber state also, likely the same one, and I'm just starting my 35 whelen build. I just bought a new Tikka T3x Light in 270 Win to use for the action, trigger and mag system.

I debated for a long time on the pros/cons and cost difference between a JES rebore and just replacing the barrel with a custom from Mcgowen. JES seemed simpler, slightly cheaper (not much after paying shipping both ways) and less work for me at the cost of quality. Rebarreling will be somewhat more expensive, depending on how giddy I go with extras, and a lot more work, but I feel it's a better end product in terms of quality, accuracy and options.

After reading your experience I'm definitely going to spend the extra $100 or so to get the new barrel. Will the extra cost be worth it? I sure hope so.

 

[shortgrass]

Such is the tale of barrels that don't get lapped. They tend to copper badly.

 

[QuietTexan]

Anyone have any thoughts there?

I typically use VFG felt pellets with Kroil/JB and it cuts through anything in a hurry.

You Howa barrel is chromoly correct? Bergara told me to use a stainless steel bore brush in their chromoly barrels, and to their credit it didn't damage the bore in any appreciable way. If it's really dirty that's always an option. I wouldn't use SS in a nice barrel, but in an unlapped factory stick what's the worst it can do?

If the barrel steel is harder than the brush and you aren't using any abrasives with it, the brush can't damage the bore. @orkan did a video with a brass brush and a power drill in a barrel to disspell the myth that bore brushes alone cause damage.

 

[MoreSalsa]

Yeah it's not a SS barrel. I have just been using a nylon brush with the BoreTech products. I could step it up to the brass brush and see how that does, and go to a SS brush if that doesn't seem to make a difference.

I took it to the longer range yesterday and tried at 200 and 300 yards. Accuracy was worse at the longer distances. At 100 yards, it seemed to be shooting around 2 to 2.3 MOA , just based on 9 rounds (one 4 shot group, one 5 shot). At 200 yards it seemed to be more like 2.5 to 3 MOA (4 or 5 shots groups). At 300 yards, I shot 6 shots that were at 3.5 MOA. A lot of variables as I was cleaning and adjusting the scope, and the groups were broken up by ceasefires at the range and cleaning sessions, with the wind changing a bit, though I don't think there was much wind over 5 mph. I was hoping to tighten up the groups from the quick 100 yard session, but that didn't seem to be happening. All of this is 47 rounds through the new barrel.

If anyone has any feedback please let me know.

It's old Remington Core Lokt ammo, and maybe it's me but different rounds seem to give noticeably different feedback in the gun, so I wonder if there is charge variance. I noticed one round had a different colored primer than the others. Maybe I'm doing something different from shot to shot.

I'll be trying some different factory ammo in it in the coming weeks (some Hornady Super Performance and Barnes TTSX (the 180 grain variety). Hoping they shoot better and I can call it an ammo issue.

 

[TRexF16]

Regarding the brush discussion above - Brush the bore if you feel the desire to; you're not going to hurt it. But if you use Wipe-Out you're not going to need any brushes, just a few patches.
And DBC helps JES rebores a lot.

I think you are right about the factory ammo having some variance. Looking forward to hearing how it does when the new ammo arrives.

Not sure if has been asked/mentioned, but how did this rifle shoot as a 30-06? Are you confident in its bedding? Is the barrel floated?

Rex

 

[MoreSalsa]

Regarding the brush discussion above - Brush the bore if you feel the desire to; you're not going to hurt it. But if you use Wipe-Out you're not going to need any brushes, just a few patches.
And DBC helps JES rebores a lot.

I think you are right about the factory ammo having some variance. Looking forward to hearing how it does when the new ammo arrives.

Not sure if has been asked/mentioned, but how did this rifle shoot as a 30-06? Are you confident in its bedding? Is the barrel floated?

Rex

As to how it was shooting when it was a 30-06, I ran old surplus ammo through it as well as fmj target ammo, 150 grain Core Lokts, and Federal Trophy Copper 165 grain. It shot the Federal decently. The rest was bad. I'm sure I was not shooting all that well back then ... I've learned a lot since then.

I'm not confident at all in its bedding ... no, not free-floated. In the off-season I might get it floated and glass bedded, as well as perhaps adding a Timney trigger (maybe Elite Hunter since that is what I have on my 6.5 Creedmoor and I like it a lot). I paid a lot of attention to the trigger while shooting and doing a lot of dry firing. The pull is not bad but it definitely jerks the gun a bit when it breaks. I got better at minimizing that with some practice but it's still there to some degree. I might even consider getting a new barrel on it since I'll have enough time to do whatever I want. Any advice about what to do first, second, third would be appreciated. In the end, I'm just trying to arrive at decent accuracy out to 300 yards. Once I'm there, I'll be happy.