Lowering ES and SD

I have also and still am down this NEVER ending rabbit hole!!!! What I have found out that REALLY helps is buying a quality scale or balance, I bought a used A & D fx120i and weigh everything to the kernel of powder. Neck tension is a very very hard thing to get under control, I still have problems here and there. I anneal every firing with and induction Annie annealer, FL size, neck turn....everything every firing, whatever you do in your initial brass prep, do it every time!

A great guy on another forum let me know some of his procedures to his F-class shooting and it has helped me find what I'm doing wrong.

I've also read that if your loaded rounds have excessive run out, that can also raise your es/sd #'s.

Also to add, I use a Kenny Porter die that uses pin gages to finalize my neck tension....

How do you clean your brass? You may need to lube the id of your case necks or bullets, the bullets may be cold welding to the id of the cases. Less neck tension can help too.

I'm really considering coating my bullets with hBn so I can load up bullets and let the m set for when I want to shoot. Just another darn process/component, but when you can tag a steel moa target multiple shots in a row or shoot a trophy animal way out, it's all worth it in the end when everything is consistent enough to do so every time you try!
 
Wondering if someone might could help me with bringing my ES an SD down on my 300rum. I'm fairly new to reloading an have done all I know to do. My col is as far as I can go an still get in the mag. I'm using H1000 an fed. 215m primers, have also tried cci primers. My ES is 26 and my SD is 12.
What bullet are you loading? Your ES isn't bad but you'll get lower sometimes by weighing your casings, which I always do, and keep those with close weights grouped together and load them. You can also check case volume if you have time to burn but it is a pain in your behind to do and equipment to do it is more expensive than the reward unless you are trying to shoot 2 miles away. You might try some other powders but I would stay with the Federal 215M primers and make sure you use ones from the same box in the group of rounds you test. Sometimes you will find your most consistent and lowest ES will come from lower speed loads with the 300RUM. It has been my experience that I get lower ES using higher grain weight bullets from 190gr-230gr out of my 300RUM.
 
Unless it's just for the learning experience and fun, then be pragmatic about it. How many rounds are you shooting to determine your ES? Is that over 3, 5, 10 or 20 rounds? An ES of <30 over 20 rounds is going to behave extremely well at pretty dang far. An ES over 3 rounds is worthless. The farther you shoot the more it matters. If you don't shoot far enough for it to matter then honestly it's a just a waste of time and money. If you do shoot far enough for it to matter then watch Shawn Carlock's video as mentioned above.
-start with good brass that has a consistent internal case volume
-use good bullets with consistent bullet weights
-use a means of obtaining a consistent powder charge
-a custom/match grade barrel helps a lot
-consistent neck tension is key. 1-2 thou is typically where it's at but some like more. The key is consistency in how you obtain that #.
-Annealing is important. From a metallurgy standpoint it brings your brass back to a consistent state making your neck tension more consistent.
-trim your cases to the same length so you don't have more or less neck "gripping" and "releasing" the bullet shot to shot.
-I've never used graphite on the inside of my case necks but after watching Shawn's video, I'm going to. I think that will help prevent "cold welding" that occurs when ammo sits for a period of time and extend the "fresh is best" phenomenon, and likely contributes to less shot to shot pressure differences.
-I'm not sure why, but seating depth can effect the consistency of pressure development. I.e. the farther you push the bullet in the case the more pressure develops but the consistency of the pressure development is different at different intervals from the lands...which is why as a last resort a seating depth test may help. Shawn demonstrates this in his video. Your ES may be 15 at 10 thou off, 25 at 15 thou off and 5 at 20 thou off.
-I'm personally not a fan of HBN, there are a lot of posts on it. If you read about it and think it's the end all be all use at your own frustration. I abandoned it completely.
 
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Hey rockytop65,

This is going to STING a bunch of our readership so watch me get flamed by some; pay attention to those that agree!
Just how important do you think ES and SD are to real accuracy and precision? I'll start by asking why it is most dope given in FPS instead of a more meaningful percentage of AV (Average Velocity) and TOF (Time Of Flight) which are much more representative of the comparables. I know that quite a few readers know a great deal more than I do about Long Range Shooting but I do know my External Ballistics from lots of through study. So here is the story: The lower the AV, the longer the range, the longer it takes for the round to reach the target; TOF. Therefore, a small variation in velocity will make a bigger difference in the Point of Impact (POI), with faster shots hitting higher and slower shots hitting lower. This is called vertical dispersion, or stringing.
The higher the velocity, and the higher the Ballistics Coefficient (BC), the less critical the ES is. Most of us would be happy if we could shoot groups of 1 MOA, but few of us can do that regularly. Consistent velocity (0% ES) is unnecessary, and so we need to come up with a degree of ES that makes no difference to our shooting system type.
I believe most of us would accept a vertical dispersion of 0.5 MOA as being completely lost within a 10 shot group size, and therefore 99.9% acceptable. Remember, we are talking total MOA spread here. The actual possible "miss" distance is half that, only ¼" high or low at 100 yards; I hope that has most of your attention. I'm going to go to a different shooting paradigm so you all can suspend disbelief for what I'm going to write about next. We will go Subsonic at short ranges!
Stay with me...as the velocity increases, at any given range, you can get away with a larger ES and stay within that 0.5 MOA vertical change in the POI. At 900 fps, with a 2% ES, out to 55 yards you will not see any error caused by that 2% (18 fps) velocity variation. The same applies with a 1% ES (9 fps) at 100 yards. However, at about 700 fps that same 9 fps ES (1.3%) would cause that same 0.5 MOA change in POI at 50 yards.
With bullets that slow down faster and/or start out at a lower MV, the ES becomes even more important. At 30 yards, at 500 fps, a 1% ES will cause about a 0.5 MOA vertical string. Increasing the velocity to 700 fps means you can double the ES to 2% and still not see the effect.
There is something else to consider here, to confirm the idea that we don't need to obsess about the ES. The very best .22LR target ammunition (with a muzzle velocity of about 1050 FPS) has an ES of 2-2.5% over a box of 50 shells. You would think that since we can easily do better than that ES you would see when shooting a Target .22 rimfire at 100 yards. The fact that we can't, confirms the idea that a 0.5 MOA vertical dispersion is lost within our actual group sizes.
So, velocity is the prime factor in determining the projectile's trajectory. But there is another factor besides the trajectory in determining if you hit your target, shoot over the top, or hit low. That is the distance to the target, and how close you are in estimating that. You may know the trajectory of your round, but what happens if you miss estimating the range by just a small amount, say 2% (2 yards at 100 yards) So just what is important? You know...
What about the effect of wind? Let's say we allow for the wind, but guess the wind speed wrong by only 2 mph? Lastly, how about if we are using good loads, but our ES is 4% instead of smaller as we might like?
It should come as no surprise to you that the biggest cause of missing your target is the wind. If you estimate the windspeed incorrectly by only 2 mph, you will miss your target by over 1 MOA at 55 yards and beyond. That is a ½ Inch error at 50 yards, from misreading the wind by just 2 mph!
What about that 4% ES you have? It turns out to be less important than a 2 mph wind, but could cause a miss of 1 MOA (3/4 Inch) at about 75 yards. Tighten up the ES a bit and it becomes even less important by the time you get out to 100 yards, just a 2 yard error in ranging is about a 1.6" error high or low in the POI.
i was going to talk about typical Chronograph error margins but I'll just say I use a LabRadar to get Average Velocities all the way to the target and calculate real BC for every projectile and weapon combination.
i think the bottom line is this is way too long already! I thank those of you who got to this point in an over-long post!

My point is basically use AVERAGE Percentage and not FPS based ES and SD so that you have more time to actually shoot and learn to make the wind your friend!

shootski
 
Brass also tryed federal brass

Personally I'd dump the Federal brass...have you de-burred the flash holes? I've broken two tools for the job trying to clean up Federal brass. If I do use it I have to use a drill bit to de-bur the flash holes.

From my experience it seems Federal cases have thicker walls, which means reduce capacity. In my 6.5 Grendel there is a huge difference in how full the case is between Hornady and Federal.

I'd try going up a couple 10ths in powder charge and recheck. Your might not be too far off.

It's not that hard to g et into single digit SD and low teen ES. I don't weigh brass or bullets, but I do clean flash holes and anneal.

OMT....I don't see mentioned very often that I do. I always brush the necks with graphite. I might be wrong but I've not had any problem with "bullet neck welding" when I use graphite in the necks.
 
Hey rockytop65,

This is going to STING a bunch of our readership so watch me get flamed by some; pay attention to those that agree!
Just how important do you think ES and SD are to real accuracy and precision? I'll start by asking why it is most dope given in FPS instead of a more meaningful percentage of AV (Average Velocity) and TOF (Time Of Flight) which are much more representative of the comparables. I know that quite a few readers know a great deal more than I do about Long Range Shooting but I do know my External Ballistics from lots of through study. So here is the story: The lower the AV, the longer the range, the longer it takes for the round to reach the target; TOF. Therefore, a small variation in velocity will make a bigger difference in the Point of Impact (POI), with faster shots hitting higher and slower shots hitting lower. This is called vertical dispersion, or stringing.
The higher the velocity, and the higher the Ballistics Coefficient (BC), the less critical the ES is. Most of us would be happy if we could shoot groups of 1 MOA, but few of us can do that regularly. Consistent velocity (0% ES) is unnecessary, and so we need to come up with a degree of ES that makes no difference to our shooting system type.
I believe most of us would accept a vertical dispersion of 0.5 MOA as being completely lost within a 10 shot group size, and therefore 99.9% acceptable. Remember, we are talking total MOA spread here. The actual possible "miss" distance is half that, only ¼" high or low at 100 yards; I hope that has most of your attention. I'm going to go to a different shooting paradigm so you all can suspend disbelief for what I'm going to write about next. We will go Subsonic at short ranges!
Stay with me...as the velocity increases, at any given range, you can get away with a larger ES and stay within that 0.5 MOA vertical change in the POI. At 900 fps, with a 2% ES, out to 55 yards you will not see any error caused by that 2% (18 fps) velocity variation. The same applies with a 1% ES (9 fps) at 100 yards. However, at about 700 fps that same 9 fps ES (1.3%) would cause that same 0.5 MOA change in POI at 50 yards.
With bullets that slow down faster and/or start out at a lower MV, the ES becomes even more important. At 30 yards, at 500 fps, a 1% ES will cause about a 0.5 MOA vertical string. Increasing the velocity to 700 fps means you can double the ES to 2% and still not see the effect.
There is something else to consider here, to confirm the idea that we don't need to obsess about the ES. The very best .22LR target ammunition (with a muzzle velocity of about 1050 FPS) has an ES of 2-2.5% over a box of 50 shells. You would think that since we can easily do better than that ES you would see when shooting a Target .22 rimfire at 100 yards. The fact that we can't, confirms the idea that a 0.5 MOA vertical dispersion is lost within our actual group sizes.
So, velocity is the prime factor in determining the projectile's trajectory. But there is another factor besides the trajectory in determining if you hit your target, shoot over the top, or hit low. That is the distance to the target, and how close you are in estimating that. You may know the trajectory of your round, but what happens if you miss estimating the range by just a small amount, say 2% (2 yards at 100 yards) So just what is important? You know...
What about the effect of wind? Let's say we allow for the wind, but guess the wind speed wrong by only 2 mph? Lastly, how about if we are using good loads, but our ES is 4% instead of smaller as we might like?
It should come as no surprise to you that the biggest cause of missing your target is the wind. If you estimate the windspeed incorrectly by only 2 mph, you will miss your target by over 1 MOA at 55 yards and beyond. That is a ½ Inch error at 50 yards, from misreading the wind by just 2 mph!
What about that 4% ES you have? It turns out to be less important than a 2 mph wind, but could cause a miss of 1 MOA (3/4 Inch) at about 75 yards. Tighten up the ES a bit and it becomes even less important by the time you get out to 100 yards, just a 2 yard error in ranging is about a 1.6" error high or low in the POI.
i was going to talk about typical Chronograph error margins but I'll just say I use a LabRadar to get Average Velocities all the way to the target and calculate real BC for every projectile and weapon combination.
i think the bottom line is this is way too long already! I thank those of you who got to this point in an over-long post!

My point is basically use AVERAGE Percentage and not FPS based ES and SD so that you have more time to actually shoot and learn to make the wind your friend!

shootski
I can disagree with this assessment. At a hundred the wind makes zero difference unless you're shooting fly wings. I tested this one windy day in Texas. Blowing 70 mph at 10 o'clock. Zero hold off with a .308. As far as dispersal...you really don't see it until 4 or 450 and beyond. But then it makes all the difference in the world. Brian Litz and Todd Hodnett published a few chapters on ES and "probability", it's a good read. It's all based on percentages of your firearms performance. Factor it all in and you get a pretty good prediction of your hit probability. One thing few shooters record and factor is their own performance. When I was more active in shooting I figured I was a 99% hitter to 400 on any given day. These days more like a 75%.
 
What are you using for a sizing die? I switched to using a lee collet die (set with collet die and seating die is around $40), and my ESs went down quite a bit. I believe this to be due to a lesser amount of neck tension (.002 vs .0035) and better concentricity. Also, if you have fired your brass a few times annealing it before sizing will also contribute to a more consistent neck tension, thus better velocity spreads.
 
I did not read most of the advice, so if a repeat, sorry. I would try tighten my numbers via charge weights to start, fine tune with neck treatments and seat depth.
If you shot a group at 800 or 1K and posted the results, you'd get a lot better answers here.
 
Hey rockytop65,

This is going to STING a bunch of our readership so watch me get flamed by some; pay attention to those that agree!
Just how important do you think ES and SD are to real accuracy and precision? I'll start by asking why it is most dope given in FPS instead of a more meaningful percentage of AV (Average Velocity) and TOF (Time Of Flight) which are much more representative of the comparables. I know that quite a few readers know a great deal more than I do about Long Range Shooting but I do know my External Ballistics from lots of through study. So here is the story: The lower the AV, the longer the range, the longer it takes for the round to reach the target; TOF. Therefore, a small variation in velocity will make a bigger difference in the Point of Impact (POI), with faster shots hitting higher and slower shots hitting lower. This is called vertical dispersion, or stringing.
The higher the velocity, and the higher the Ballistics Coefficient (BC), the less critical the ES is. Most of us would be happy if we could shoot groups of 1 MOA, but few of us can do that regularly. Consistent velocity (0% ES) is unnecessary, and so we need to come up with a degree of ES that makes no difference to our shooting system type.
I believe most of us would accept a vertical dispersion of 0.5 MOA as being completely lost within a 10 shot group size, and therefore 99.9% acceptable. Remember, we are talking total MOA spread here. The actual possible "miss" distance is half that, only ¼" high or low at 100 yards; I hope that has most of your attention. I'm going to go to a different shooting paradigm so you all can suspend disbelief for what I'm going to write about next. We will go Subsonic at short ranges!
Stay with me...as the velocity increases, at any given range, you can get away with a larger ES and stay within that 0.5 MOA vertical change in the POI. At 900 fps, with a 2% ES, out to 55 yards you will not see any error caused by that 2% (18 fps) velocity variation. The same applies with a 1% ES (9 fps) at 100 yards. However, at about 700 fps that same 9 fps ES (1.3%) would cause that same 0.5 MOA change in POI at 50 yards.
With bullets that slow down faster and/or start out at a lower MV, the ES becomes even more important. At 30 yards, at 500 fps, a 1% ES will cause about a 0.5 MOA vertical string. Increasing the velocity to 700 fps means you can double the ES to 2% and still not see the effect.
There is something else to consider here, to confirm the idea that we don't need to obsess about the ES. The very best .22LR target ammunition (with a muzzle velocity of about 1050 FPS) has an ES of 2-2.5% over a box of 50 shells. You would think that since we can easily do better than that ES you would see when shooting a Target .22 rimfire at 100 yards. The fact that we can't, confirms the idea that a 0.5 MOA vertical dispersion is lost within our actual group sizes.
So, velocity is the prime factor in determining the projectile's trajectory. But there is another factor besides the trajectory in determining if you hit your target, shoot over the top, or hit low. That is the distance to the target, and how close you are in estimating that. You may know the trajectory of your round, but what happens if you miss estimating the range by just a small amount, say 2% (2 yards at 100 yards) So just what is important? You know...
What about the effect of wind? Let's say we allow for the wind, but guess the wind speed wrong by only 2 mph? Lastly, how about if we are using good loads, but our ES is 4% instead of smaller as we might like?
It should come as no surprise to you that the biggest cause of missing your target is the wind. If you estimate the windspeed incorrectly by only 2 mph, you will miss your target by over 1 MOA at 55 yards and beyond. That is a ½ Inch error at 50 yards, from misreading the wind by just 2 mph!
What about that 4% ES you have? It turns out to be less important than a 2 mph wind, but could cause a miss of 1 MOA (3/4 Inch) at about 75 yards. Tighten up the ES a bit and it becomes even less important by the time you get out to 100 yards, just a 2 yard error in ranging is about a 1.6" error high or low in the POI.
i was going to talk about typical Chronograph error margins but I'll just say I use a LabRadar to get Average Velocities all the way to the target and calculate real BC for every projectile and weapon combination.
i think the bottom line is this is way too long already! I thank those of you who got to this point in an over-long post!

My point is basically use AVERAGE Percentage and not FPS based ES and SD so that you have more time to actually shoot and learn to make the wind your friend!

shootski
Well though out and also well said
 
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