Low SD but bad groups

[orkan]

I'm not going to get into it with Brian but I will with you. 100 yds is just too close to see meaningful differences. We have a 100 yd indoor range. Every rifle I have will duplicate the groups shot there at 300 outside. No idea if it is lighting, their tables, or whatever, but it is pretty consistent. I am not referring to the boattaild going to sleep. Never believed that. I am referring to today's rifles are too accurate to be able to judge loads that close. We don't test enough rounds to have meaningful statistics between loads anyway. Short range only enhances the issue. The more accurate the rifle the worse it is. I believe this is where a lot of the shoots good at 100 but falls apart at 400 comes from.

I work with some pretty accurate rifles. I do all my load work ups at 100yds. How do you reconcile that?


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[Orange Dust]

I work with some pretty accurate rifles. I do all my load work ups at 100yds. How do you reconcile that?


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Like I said, when working up a load I don't and highly doubt if you actually fire enough of load A to determine if it is statistically more accurate than load B. If you are shooting @ 100 yds, 3 shot groups, and you get .330, .430, .496 which is more accurate? Actually they all shoot good so it doesn't matter which one you pick for a hunting load, but you have no idea from the data which is more accurate. The sample size is too small and the groups are too small. The further away you shoot I personally feel the more meaningful the groups will be. Reasons are there is more dispersion so it is easier to see the difference between loads, and you, or I will anyway concentrate harder to shoot a good group. I do all my load workups @ 300yds. The reasons are simply because that is my current 0 distance, I can easily see bullet holes that far, that's where my bench is etc. I feel it would be even more meaningful twice that far, but I am not set up for it. About the only testing I do that approaches having meaningful statistics is .22LR. Have a couple that shoot pretty well and we test ammo by shooting 5, 10 shot groups @ 100 yds. Personally I think this is enough to determine if one lot of ammo is more accurate than another, but I might be wrong. It is a good number since everything gets shot up and nothing is wasted. Your mileage may vary.

 

[orkan]

Like I said, when working up a load I don't and highly doubt if you actually fire enough of load A to determine if it is statistically more accurate than load B. If you are shooting @ 100 yds, 3 shot groups, and you get .330, .430, .496 which is more accurate? Actually they all shoot good so it doesn't matter which one you pick for a hunting load, but you have no idea from the data which is more accurate. The sample size is too small and the groups are too small. The further away you shoot I personally feel the more meaningful the groups will be. Reasons are there is more dispersion so it is easier to see the difference between loads, and you, or I will anyway concentrate harder to shoot a good group. I do all my load workups @ 300yds. The reasons are simply because that is my current 0 distance, I can easily see bullet holes that far, that's where my bench is etc. I feel it would be even more meaningful twice that far, but I am not set up for it. About the only testing I do that approaches having meaningful statistics is .22LR. Have a couple that shoot pretty well and we test ammo by shooting 5, 10 shot groups @ 100 yds. Personally I think this is enough to determine if one lot of ammo is more accurate than another, but I might be wrong. It is a good number since everything gets shot up and nothing is wasted. Your mileage may vary.

You speak with a lot of authority. Do you do this professionally? As in, are people paying you for load development and advice on how to do it? Could you post a link to your company? I'd like to do some due diligence on your experience before forming a response.


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[Orange Dust]

You speak with a lot of authority. Do you do this professionally? As in, are people paying you for load development and advice on how to do it? Could you post a link to your company? I'd like to do some due diligence on your experience before forming a response.


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No, I'm just an old guy that once had a company that did custom loads, shot a lot of competition, had a big head and learned nothing. Retired to shoot shotguns with a less stressful group. Sometimes, just sometimes I still even win, but just sometimes. At any rate I still can work up a load that is good enough and shoot well enough to kill enough to eat, and sometimes from pretty far away. Pretty much what this site is about.

 

[milo-2]

You speak with a lot of authority. Do you do this professionally? As in, are people paying you for load development and advice on how to do it? Could you post a link to your company? I'd like to do some due diligence on your experience before forming a response.


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This right here may be why people don't really warm up to you.
You were the one who had to make a decision on whether you wanted to be part of this forum after some controversy was directed at you.
By what you just posted, unless you run a business in the industry, your thoughts or practices have no merit. If only site sponsors have a say, forum is doomed, not just this one, but all.

 

[orkan]

This right here may be why people don't really warm up to you.
You were the one who had to make a decision on whether you wanted to be part of this forum after some controversy was directed at you.
By what you just posted, unless you run a business in the industry, your thoughts or practices have no merit. If only site sponsors have a say, forum is doomed, not just this one, but all.

You're sure putting a lot of words in my mouth. Just because you want to take everything I say in the worst possible way you can dream up... doesn't mean that is how I'm thinking about it. Why is it impossible for you to give me the benefit of the doubt in anything I say? Why do you always have to make everything personal. Why is it impossible for you to ignore my posts if you can't at least TRY to assume ANY positive motive behind anything I say?

Why is it such an offense to ask to get to know someone before responding? I have no idea who he is. He clearly didn't take offense and his response was super helpful. I was in the middle of responding when I get interrupted by yet another post of yours attacking me, as if I have some obligation to you. Not ONE THING you interpreted from what I said was even close to anything I had in my mind.

If you can't let your hatred of me stop clouding every single thing I write, then click the INGORE button and stay clear of me.


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[milo-2]

I work with some pretty accurate rifles. I do all my load work ups at 100yds. How do you reconcile that?


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Lot of guys can crush loads at 100, and I have seen some awesome ones that carried for a long ways. Maybe Orange Dust likes to know the security that his load will hold. Neither is wrong.

The key may be to know what you are looking at. Back in the facebook heyday on gun groups, someone added me to a 6.5 creed group. A kid posted a 5 shot group at 200 yards, oohhs and aagghhs were the theme. The group was 5 shots in a vertical string, no horizontal deflection. Of course I had to tell him that his load is not quite what he thinks it is. I got flamed hard by the fan club, but I was right, by the time he shot that load at 1K, his vertical dispersion would be too much.

 

[milo-2]

You're sure putting a lot of words in my mouth. Just because you want to take everything I say in the worst possible way you can dream up... doesn't mean that is how I'm thinking about it. Why is it impossible for you to give me the benefit of the doubt in anything I say? Why do you always have to make everything personal. Why is it impossible for you to ignore my posts if you can't at least TRY to assume ANY positive motive behind anything I say?

Why is it such an offense to ask to get to know someone before responding? I have no idea who he is. He clearly didn't take offense and his response was super helpful. I was in the middle of responding when I get interrupted by yet another post of yours attacking me, as if I have some obligation to you. Not ONE THING you interpreted from what I said was even close to anything I had in my mind.

If you can't let your hatred of me stop clouding every single thing I write, then click the INGORE button and stay clear of me.


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NO, you called him out, asking for credentials, you re-read what you posted and then ask me again.

 

[Tree Farmer]

I too thought the question was heavy handed. Orange Dust's response was very classy. I don't like sniping at someone's opinion. I'd prefer to hear alternatives based on data or experience. I'm just entry level shooter/reloader that's looking for ideas and advice. I appreciate it when the experts can answer a question without condensation.

 

[Tree Farmer]

Condescension.

 

[orkan]

NO, you called him out, asking for credentials, you re-read what you posted and then ask me again.

You're on ignore, right now. You've had a problem with me for as long as I can remember. You act like I am obligated to be who you think I am, and you won't get over it... so I'm going to get you over it.

So you can sit in your toxic mess without me. I've tried to reason with you more times than I can count. I'm done with you. Go ahead and respond. Scream into the wall and see if that makes you feel intelligent. Make sure you get nice and close to that wall when you scream at it. Find a new hobby, because I'm not it anymore.

There is no speaking logically with someone that is determined to take an adversarial approach to everything that is said, no matter what is said.


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[orkan]

At any rate I still can work up a load that is good enough and shoot well enough to kill enough to eat, and sometimes from pretty far away. Pretty much what this site is about.

You had mentioned about the tables and lighting and such at your indoor spot. Have you replicated the effect when shooting outdoors? In all of our training classes or any of the groups of shooters I've been around, nor in my own shooting... I've only ever seen one instance of non-linear dispersion. That was an under-spun 375 cheytac with solids. Very specific situation and it couldn't be replicated with enough consistency to validate.

So it would seem something specific is going on in your situation that would be the root cause of this. My previous question was aimed at trying to figure out what kind of round count, how many rifles, and how many cartridges you're seeing this behavior with. Gravity and physics works the same way for you as it does for me here, so first I'd like to quantify the amount of experience you've had with the aforementioned things. Is this an "all the time" thing, or is it just something you see once in a while? Or maybe its always with a specific setup or cartridge?

With tens of thousands of rounds fired through dozens of rifles each year, I've never once seen it... and if you're seeing it consistently, I'd like to find out why.


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[Orange Dust]

You're on ignore, right now. You've had a problem with me for as long as I can remember. You act like I am obligated to be who you think I am, and you won't get over it... so I'm going to get you over it.

So you can sit in your toxic mess without me. I've tried to reason with you more times than I can count. I'm done with you. Go ahead and respond. Scream into the wall and see if that makes you feel intelligent. Make sure you get nice and close to that wall when you scream at it. Find a new hobby, because I'm not it anymore.

There is no speaking logically with someone that is determined to take an adversarial approach to everything that is said, no matter what is said.


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their benches are tables that are not solid. Could be getting a bounce from them?? Could be the lights with my old eyes. I shoot there fairly often. It is climate controlled and the farm is not LOL. It is a thing and not a fluke. I don't really care I just shoot there because it is comfortable and fun. I really do feel the further away you are able to test loads the better and more consistent your results will be. However, I am old and I'm sure my methods are dated and will not work for a professional like you so please ignore my ramblings.

 

[Orange Dust]

their benches are tables that are not solid. Could be getting a bounce from them?? Could be the lights with my old eyes. I shoot there fairly often. It is climate controlled and the farm is not LOL. It is a thing and not a fluke. I don't really care I just shoot there because it is comfortable and fun. I really do feel the further away you are able to test loads the better and more consistent your results will be. However, I am old and I'm sure my methods are dated and will not work for a professional like you so please ignore my ramblings.

How dit that happen? I was replying to the post above not this one. Never seen it before