Loaded for bear....

[Paparock]

Hello Paparock, I am not trying to sell one particular rifle or feed system over another, I believe that both systems have their pluses and minuses. The poster seemed to be seeking some information. I read a lot about bullet design and bullets that "ought" to get the job done. I prefer as you have stated to "make sure that the rifle is bulletproof!!" Also another reply was not to use a tack hammer when you need a sledgehammer. I took a lesson from this hunter who ran into a problem with a small (push feed) extractor. My arsenal is primarily Rugers because I prefer that wide, mauser/claw extractor for its ability to get the expended round out of the chamber to make room for the next one. This particular hunter who I wrote about is young, agile and very strong. I could see him really ripping at that bolt to get the next shot into the chamber, when that bear was upon him, and tearing the extractor right through the rim of the case. Again when dealing with something that can and will hurt you or worst it is always wise to keep Murphy's law in mind

I understand completely. Most sniper rifles are push feeds and as I said thousands of people hunt with them including many guides with no issues. I was not trying to put push feeds down its just a preference thing and when dealing with any game that has the potential to bite back there has long been a "friendly debate" over which is preferable. Both are likely to serve well however some of us "Old Timers" have tended to favor "controlled round feed" as have the majority of African Game Guides who use bolt action rifles rather than double rifles. A "friend" of mine that ran a gun shop knew I had long wanted a double in .375 H&H but he did not call me when a lady came in with a matched set; one in .375 H&H and one in .458 Win. Mag after her husband's passing. I will not say what he paid for them as the price was what she was asking but I scolded him in a friendly manner. First for what he paid her and secondly NOT for letting me have a chance at the .375 H&H but I knew why because he would have been ashamed to ask me for what he wanted for it. When hunting I have always been one that likes to get as close as I can before shooting and it has always been a dream I am afraid I shall never be able to afford to have a side by side.

 

[Guy M]

Have shot a few bears, chased a few others, been in on several kills others have made. Bear hunting is an interesting challenge. Exciting!

One of the things that seems tough to me with bears, is shot placement. With deer or elk, we've got a well defined shoulder & front end. Bears... Oftentimes just look like big balls of fur! It can be tough to quickly get the sights or crosshairs on the shoulder/vital zone.

2010 Washington bear. 306 yards, one-shot 260 grain Nosler Accubond, Ruger Number One in 375 H&H:

2010, my son's first bear. About 150 yards, 165 gr Nosler Partition, 1917 30-06. The bear tried to run after the first hit, and it ended up taking several hits:

2013? Washington. Honestly can't remember when my son got his second bear, again with the 30-06 and 165 gr Nosler Partitions:

2016, Washington, a single 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip from my 30-06, at about 325 yards. Recovered the bullet jacket from the off-side hide, but the core separated, leaving a nice size exit wound:

2017, Alaska, Brooks Range arctic grizzly, squares just over 8', large for the area. 30-06 with 200 gr Nosler Partitions and a couple of shots from the 338 Win Mag with 225 gr Barnes TSX's. All shooting at 40 yards and closer. Quite exciting for a few moments:

Couple of months ago, fly fishing for silvers in Alaska. We saw coastal brownies almost every day, often within 100 yards of us. Lots of bear observing going on that trip, along with some great fishing:

Bears are pretty cool animals. I enjoy seeing them, hunting them, and black bear can be delicious table fare! I shoot them in late summer/early fall when they're feeding on berries.

Have noticed that when the subject of bears comes up on the internet, there's often a lot of chest thumping and swearing up and down about one bullet or cartridge or rifle being a vastly superior choice. Fact is, bears are taken every year by hunters using rifles small and large. Shot placement and a good bullet. Same as other game. But... With bears there is just enough potential danger that it grabs our imagination! And I dearly love that about bear hunting.

Regards, Guy

 

[Alibiiv]

Hello GuyM, thanks for sharing your hunting experiences with your son. In another thread where there is discussion about the 130 grain bullet failure of the 6.5 Creedmore on an elk, I posted the following reply to one of the posts that was arguing about how effective the 6.5 Creedmore is/ought to be when taking an elk. Here's the reply:
Thank you JemezDave, of all the posts that I have read on this subject this makes the most sense of them all. "It's bullet construction, range, energy, conditions, shooter ability, shot placement, ability to make a follow up shot quickly, caliber-it all matters". Before commenting any further I would like to say that I am not an elk hunter, have never shot an elk, however would if the opportunity ever presented itself. I just do not want to be criticized for not being an elk hunter and making a comment on how to shoot an elk. I will also admit the farthest shot that I have ever made on a game animal was a small buck at 450 yards with a .270 Winchester with 130 grain Nosler partition bullet. The deer dropped right in its tracks, and I "thought" that it was down, but it got up and ran. I couldn't get back on the deer to take a follow up shot because of the distance. We tracked the deer for two days before we lost the trail in a cedar swamp. I wouldn't take that shot today. I can however say that I have shot caribou, countless white tail deer and a number of black bear; and, have witnessed where a large number of black bear have been harvested by other hunters in outfitter camps. The larger the caliber and the heavier the bullet meant the less work for the guides. When we talk about shooting an animal that is being hunted and shot we don't have to be talking elk, what JemezDave has written in his post is applicable to "ALL" game that we hunt, no matter what the species!! Many of us are shooting at game that is going to run away from us and not at us. If you have read any of the threads and posts where people are grizzly hunting, the hunters are not worried about the animal getting up and running away from them, the are worried about the animal running at them and tearing them apart. They're asking, "Is my bullet heavy enough", "is the caliber of my rifle large enough for the bear that I am hunting", "is the construction of my bullet going to work on the bear?" They would be nuts to be concerned about anything else!! It's a hunting double standard when we make the statement that its enough caliber, it will take the animal down and the bullet possesses enough damage and does devastating damage with pass throughs when we are hunting something that is going to run away from us; however, when something is going to come at us/the hunter, and do us some serious bodily injury or death (dangerous game), now what we are seriously concerned about turns to insuring terminal ballistics on the game that is being hunted and it is even suggested that the hunter carries a large handgun that is readily available at all times as back up in case what we have chosen to hunt with is inadequate!! Good job JemezDave your post really sums it up.

 

[hunter67wa]

There are two types of rifle calibers. Just enough and not enough. hahahahahaha

 

[Paparock]

When it comes to bears it is good to know their structure.

Head on shot placement for stopping a charge.

 

[Paparock]

No the guy in the last pic in my above post is NOT being mauled but is a wild animal trainer playing with his trained grizzly. It is offered only as a size difference between a man and a grizzly. The edit function would not allow me to put this below the pic after my computer spazed out so I posted it here to be clear.

Bears do have big heavy muscles and bones that protect their vitals so shot placement and controlled expansion bullets are best. Never underestimate any bear even the black bear as I lost a personal friend to one. The only thing predictable about bears is their Un-Predictability.

List of fatal bear attacks in North America - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

 

[Guy M]

Re their bones - perhaps of interest. I've found the bear ribs very soft and pliable. No problem for any conventional hunting bullet. Other bones can be bigger, stronger of course.

Was pleased that my first hit on the grizzly broke his fore-leg, and the bullet entered the chest/heart/lung area. That was a 200 gr Nosler Partition at a mv of about 2600 fps and the range was maybe 40 yards. That was a killing shot, but it took a while, and a few more shots to convince the bear.

Interesting discussion guys, thank you.

Guy

 

[Paparock]

Hi, everyone. Brenneke slugs have long been the standard by which all others are measured. I have two others you might be interested in one from a small company and the other from a big manufacturer. Federal's line for the .458 Win. Mag. includes a couple of 500 grain controlled expansion type bullets, and a 500 grain solid. All of these are loaded to a MV of 2,090 fps and a ME of 4,850 ft. lbs. If you take note below the Lightfield Commander IDS Plus 3-1/2″ 12 ga slug load steps all over the heels of the .458 Win. Mag. firing a controlled expansion slug of 600 grains so it is not something to ignore if you can handle it. Even the 3" is a formidable round and easier on recoil. The Dixie IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug) is a close range 870 grain .73 caliber non-expanding thumper. It all depends on where and how you hunt or what you are looking for in a 12 Gauge round. These rounds turn a 12 gauge into a whole different weapon.

I have a custom shop original model Deerslayer III 3" with a fully rifled Bull Barrel that has a custom trigger and weighs 11lbs. The heavy bull barrel is screwed into the steel action which makes it in essence a .73 caliber pump action rifle for close range work yet with the right ammo can reach out to 200 Yards if needed. Believe me you do not want to touch of these rounds in a light weight 12 gauge!!

1st. is from Lightfield Ammo. They make both a Commander IDS Plus 3″ 12 ga. and a Commander IDS Plus 3-1/2″ 12 ga. round.

The Commander IDS Plus 3″ 12 ga The Lightfield IDS Commander Plus was designed as a high velocity Sabot Slug for use in modern rifled barrel and smooth bore shotguns. Its 1 3/8 oz (600 grain) at 1700 FPS, 73 caliber slug producing 3850 ft/lbs at the barrel and 1324 ft/lbs @ 150 yards. TKO= 107!! The patented IDS design incorporates an impact-discarding Sabot that aids stability in the wind and produces a controlled expansion slug for deeper penetration for larger big game animals.

Commander IDS Plus 3-1/2″ 12 ga the difference between it and the 3" above is it produces 1890 FPS and 4759 ft/lbs of energy at the barre firing the same 600grain sabot.

Dixie Slugs makes the IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug) which is .730" and weighs 870 grs. and leaves a 20" barrel at 1200FPS. This is similar to the old black powder 2 bore elephant rounds according to my understanding. It ix not meant for longer ranges but as a stopping round at 25 yards and under.

 

[Guy M]

hunting caribou with a grizzly tag in my pocket....would you feel comfortable with a tikka 300win stoked with 200gr (accubonds,partition,aframes) and a 5 round mag while hiking around in grizz country?.....with regard to 1. Reliability in the action feeding etc.....and 2. The amount of firepower at hand? The gun fits me like a glove and points naturally. I'm confident in its accuracy and my abilities with it. Obviously I'm not looking to poke a fight with a bear or put myself in a bad situation just use good common sense and limit my shots to high percentage within a reasonable distance.

I think I'm done here. And then some. The OP asked about a 300 mag with 200 gr bullets while he was on a caribou hunt. I think we're well beyond that. I probably should have stopped commenting after my first reply.

Regards, Guy

 

[Paparock]

Well Guy, the 200gr if of a well constricted controlled expansion maker is a good choice. I have owned both a .30-06 and a .300 Win Mag. I preferred to use Nosler .200 grain bullets depending upon what I was hunting if I went with the Partition or AccuBond.

I know many people like to vary their bullet weighs via their game animals but I was never one of those. I found what bullets my rifles liked and stuck with them adjusting my aim to maximize the bullets nature. Barnes makes extra nice bullets if your rifle shoots them well.

 

[Guy M]

Paparock - you may have some valid points, but by your own admission you've never even shot a bear...

So... I was about to bow out of this discussion, but wow, you sucked me right back in.

Maybe your opinion, as a fellow who doesn't bear hunt, doesn't really hold much weight?

I don't weigh in and make moose bullet/cartridge recommendations 'cause I've never shot a moose. Dang. If I've got experience with something, and someone asks, I'll answer as best I can. If I don't have experience I'll shut up and listen. Much to learn here. Remember that being older doesn't make one an expert at anything in particular. I'm only 62, still learning. Fairly competent at some things. A novice at others.

For instance I THINK I could choose the right rifle for musk ox, but... I've never hunted them. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd read, listen, and try my best. Not that I can afford that hunt. Okay. I'm out of here again. Hopefully for good. Some other folks, Paparock, ought to get out of this discussion as well.

Just a thought.

Guy

 

[Paparock]

Paparock - you may have some valid points, but by your own admission you've never even shot a bear...

So... I was about to bow out of this discussion, but wow, you sucked me right back in.

Maybe your opinion, as a fellow who doesn't bear hunt, doesn't really hold much weight?

I don't weigh in and make moose bullet/cartridge recommendations 'cause I've never shot a moose. Dang. If I've got experience with something, and someone asks, I'll answer as best I can. If I don't have experience I'll shut up and listen. Much to learn here. Remember that being older doesn't make one an expert at anything in particular. I'm only 62, still learning. Fairly competent at some things. A novice at others.

For instance I THINK I could choose the right rifle for musk ox, but... I've never hunted them. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd read, listen, and try my best. Not that I can afford that hunt. Okay. I'm out of here again. Hopefully for good. Some other folks, Paparock, ought to get out of this discussion as well.

Just a thought.

Guy

That's fine guy, I thought I would contribute what I did know about bears as I didn't exactly see this thread burning the wires down and not everyone starting out knows everything but I'm out also.

Paparock - you may have some valid points, but by your own admission you've never even shot a bear...

So... I was about to bow out of this discussion, but wow, you sucked me right back in.

Maybe your opinion, as a fellow who doesn't bear hunt, doesn't really hold much weight?

I don't weigh in and make moose bullet/cartridge recommendations 'cause I've never shot a moose. Dang. If I've got experience with something, and someone asks, I'll answer as best I can. If I don't have experience I'll shut up and listen. Much to learn here. Remember that being older doesn't make one an expert at anything in particular. I'm only 62, still learning. Fairly competent at some things. A novice at others.

For instance I THINK I could choose the right rifle for musk ox, but... I've never hunted them. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd read, listen, and try my best. Not that I can afford that hunt. Okay. I'm out of here again. Hopefully for good. Some other folks, Paparock, ought to get out of this discussion as well.

Just a thought.

Guy

 

[sp6x6]

Since you said you would have a grizz tag in your pocket.I hunt here in Mt around grizz and they are general much larger and more attitude.Black bear not general hard to kill,I put a broadhead threw ones shoulder blade with a 76# bow,bear was 7+.I have used a Safari sling for years which is front carry,and pack a 338 for last 35 years,340-338nm.My son shot his first black bear with 243,last 6 he shot with my old 340wby and arrowed one this year,hes 23.Wish I was doing that hunt best of luck,I shot partions and AB's for years.If only G bear I would up bullet Swift a frame,or possible mono metal

 

[Catahoula]

Paparock - you may have some valid points, but by your own admission you've never even shot a bear...

So... I was about to bow out of this discussion, but wow, you sucked me right back in.

Maybe your opinion, as a fellow who doesn't bear hunt, doesn't really hold much weight?

I don't weigh in and make moose bullet/cartridge recommendations 'cause I've never shot a moose. Dang. If I've got experience with something, and someone asks, I'll answer as best I can. If I don't have experience I'll shut up and listen. Much to learn here. Remember that being older doesn't make one an expert at anything in particular. I'm only 62, still learning. Fairly competent at some things. A novice at others.

For instance I THINK I could choose the right rifle for musk ox, but... I've never hunted them. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd read, listen, and try my best. Not that I can afford that hunt. Okay. I'm out of here again. Hopefully for good. Some other folks, Paparock, ought to get out of this discussion as well.

Just a thought.

Guy

Very good response. I just love it when I tell someone what has worked for me & you get a educated-dumbA$$ telling you that you are wrong.
Thanks, Kirk