Load work-up: Powder charge vs Seating depth?

[Bigeclipse]

Hey all,
I know I have posted a few of these threads. Unfortunately at the range I belong to, not many people reload (I live near a city in NY state non the less) so all my reloading knowledge comes mainly from online sources and books so please bear with me. I have been working up a load for my 3006 Remington 700 rifle. I have Only loaded two loads at ~.120 off the lands. Unfortunately I was going for the .050 off the lands but the rounds looked crazy long so I loaded some up at .120 off the lands before I found out that these crazy long rounds are not unheard of lol so I figured id shoot them anyways. I only loaded two of these loads with IMR 4064 with 168 ttsx bullets. This will be a hunting load I intend on using out to 300 maybe 400 yards. I know this is not really that far and a 1 MOA rifle will do just fine here but I am the type of guy that likes to maximize his loads (while staying in a resonable budget of course). Anyways, the manual said 46.5 grains min and I believe 51 grains or around there for a max. I loaded 4 rounds at 47 and 4 rounds at 47.5 (I know 3 rounds is good enough for a group test but I like 4 just in case I throw a flier) The load at 47 grains was great for me about 3/4 MOA while the the group at 47.5 DRASTICALLY opened up to almost 2.5MOA. I have never had a spread like that with my other rifle I loaded for. The good load shot almost right at book value. I got 2695fps and book value I think was 2725fps or something like that. So what should I do from here. Load more of the .75 MOA rounds to confirm it shoots that way and call it a day or keep testing? Should I up the charges to see if I can find another accuracy node with higher velocity at the current bullet depth or start over with loads .050 off the lands. Again my goal here is I dont want to burn through tons of powder/bullets just to increase accuracy by a little but yeah I do want to put in a decent effort for the animal's sake that I am hunting (white tail deer). Please dont comment on oh try this powder and this bullet...I have 42 more of the TTSXs id want to burn up and a decent amount more of the 4064 before I would consider buying other stuff.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Just looking for what may be my next steps. Should I just stick with the one load that got decent results at ~2700fps? Should I mess with bullet seating depth? Should I make some loads with higher grains since im towards the bottom of the recommended charges and see if I can find another accuracy node? Is 2700fps 165grain 3006 bullet good enough for shots out to 400 yards?

 

[BrentM]

Post stuff like this is reloading not LR shooting section would be better for you.

The problem with what you are doing is you have limited supplies and you don't want to use it up. It generally takes 30-40 rounds to get a good load unless you are lucky or good. I tend to find a good load quickly but then spend a lot of time looking for a perfect load or to cut .5 MOA out of the spread.

2700 FPS with a 168 is plenty for 400 yards to kill any north american game animal. Put the bullet where it belongs and you are good to go.

As far as charge weight of powder, the limiting factor is not book recommendations but your rifle and brass. I have never been able to load max on my 6.5-284 for example, not even close.

1. determine COAL (base of case to Ogive of bullet) for your rifle and THAT bullet.
2. See if it will fit the magazine of your rifle at Max COAL.
3. If it will not, push bullet into case until the cartridge fits the magazine. That will be your starting point.
4. load your bullets at .010 off the lands and do a pressure test with 1 round loaded with 47, 47.5, 48. etc to max charge. Check pressure signs. Once press ure is found back off .5 grains.
5. Use safe charge weight in doing a seating depth test. .010 through .125 for example. I do .010, .025, .050, .075, .100, .125 and fine tune.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Post stuff like this is reloading not LR shooting section would be better for you.

The problem with what you are doing is you have limited supplies and you don't want to use it up. It generally takes 30-40 rounds to get a good load unless you are lucky or good. I tend to find a good load quickly but then spend a lot of time looking for a perfect load or to cut .5 MOA out of the spread.

2700 FPS with a 168 is plenty for 400 yards to kill any north american game animal. Put the bullet where it belongs and you are good to go.

As far as charge weight of powder, the limiting factor is not book recommendations but your rifle and brass. I have never been able to load max on my 6.5-284 for example, not even close.

1. determine COAL (base of case to Ogive of bullet) for your rifle and THAT bullet.
2. See if it will fit the magazine of your rifle at Max COAL.
3. If it will not, push bullet into case until the cartridge fits the magazine. That will be your starting point.
4. load your bullets at .010 off the lands and do a pressure test with 1 round loaded with 47, 47.5, 48. etc to max charge. Check pressure signs. Once press ure is found back off .5 grains.
5. Use safe charge weight in doing a seating depth test. .010 through .125 for example. I do .010, .025, .050, .075, .100, .125 and fine tune.

is all of this done in groups? My guess is for the pressure check part I could do it with one or 2 rounds for each grain wieght, but what do you mean by your step 5 for seating depth test?

 

[BrentM]

Pressure is done with 1 load.

Seating depth test is done with 3 to 4 rounds as you described ealier unless you reload in the field like I do. I do 2 rounds. If I pull or yank a shot I load a 3rd. If the 2 rounds are not grouping I move on. If the 2 group I load a 3rd and confirm. If 3 group I am likley in an accuracy node.

Seating Depth- depth of bullet in case neck. This is done via measuring the coal from your starting point and seating the bullet in steps of .025. This is group testing for accuracy.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Pressure is done with 1 load.

Seating depth test is done with 3 to 4 rounds as you described ealier unless you reload in the field like I do. I do 2 rounds. If I pull or yank a shot I load a 3rd. If the 2 rounds are not grouping I move on. If the 2 group I load a 3rd and confirm. If 3 group I am likley in an accuracy node.

Seating Depth- depth of bullet in case neck. This is done via measuring the coal from your starting point and seating the bullet in steps of .025. This is group testing for accuracy.

Thank you for your comments. I will start with finding my upper pressure limits. The crazy thing is my buddy gave me one of his reloads to try, so I did...it came out at a whopping 2975fps. The bolt was easy to open. The primer was not cratered or flattened and the case looked fine with no signs of pressure. I was shocked because all my reloading manuals only show ~2750-2850fps being a high for almost all loads with 165 grain bullets.

 

[BrentM]

That is because books are showing loads for a specific COAL and barrel length.

I had a friend once shoot another friends hand load in a remington. The load was so hot it blew through the primer, through the bolt, and down the trigger. It destroyed a jewel trigger. Be careful with that.

 

[Bigeclipse]

That is because books are showing loads for a specific COAL and barrel length.

I had a friend once shoot another friends hand load in a remington. The load was so hot it blew through the primer, through the bolt, and down the trigger. It destroyed a jewel trigger. Be careful with that.

Oh I totally understand that and I understand I took a risk and wont do it again unless it is my own loads but I was surprised at how fast the bullet was moving which I have heard could indicate I was shooting over-pressure but the spent casing had zero signs of over pressure and the bolt lifted easily.

 

[CoasttoCoast]

looks like you found a good load, you might not find a better 1. If you really want more velocity, I would leave the bullet depth the same and increase the powder charge .1 grains and shoot a 3 shot group working my way up to the max recommended powder charge. you will see that your groups will grow and shrink as your powder charge changes. It does take time, but you may be able to find a load that shoots a similar group with higher velocity than the one you found.

 

[Bigeclipse]

looks like you found a good load, you might not find a better 1. If you really want more velocity, I would leave the bullet depth the same and increase the powder charge .1 grains and shoot a 3 shot group working my way up to the max recommended powder charge. you will see that your groups will grow and shrink as your powder charge changes. It does take time, but you may be able to find a load that shoots a similar group with higher velocity than the one you found.

.1 grains at a time? wow that would be a lot more loads lol. do I really need to check every .1 grains or can I do like .25-.5 grain jumps?

 

[CoasttoCoast]

.1 grains at a time? wow that would be a lot more loads lol. do I really need to check every .1 grains or can I do like .25-.5 grain jumps?

there is no specific increment requirement. .1 would be for fine tuning a load to your barrel. you can do .5 increments or even 1 gr increments until you find that range where the group starts opening back up, then you can fine tune it between the range to find the load your rile likes the best. It does take a while and a lot of rounds, but you will find a load that works for your rifle.

 

[BrentM]

I think it depends on your OCD level. I have about 120 through my new barrel that is shooting .25 moa or better. I shot several 1 hole groups but didn't like the pressure signs. I am trying to find the same accuracy level with less pressure so I am chasing my tail around now. Hell, it might be that I am just not a good enough shooter and my expectations are not realistic.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I think it depends on your OCD level. I have about 120 through my new barrel that is shooting .25 moa or better. I shot several 1 hole groups but didn't like the pressure signs. I am trying to find the same accuracy level with less pressure so I am chasing my tail around now. Hell, it might be that I am just not a good enough shooter and my expectations are not realistic.

My OCD isnt too bad and I am not a competition shooter yet. I just want my rifle shooting whatever it takes to get me to 400 yards and know that if I missed the deer is was not because I have high MOA but because "I" missed the deer. I heard 1 MOA would be fine for this so my expectations arent really high and I already found .75moa but at the slower end of my rifle's potential it looks ~2700fps.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Speed isnt everything. Its nice to have but an extra 50-100 fps isnt gonna improve youre bullet's performance all that much. I would gladly give up 100 fps for an extra .25 moa.