Ladder testing...just a couple questions

[Bigeclipse]

I have read all about the ladder testing and watched a couple videos. I just need a few things cleared up. Ok so the max distance I can shoot is 300 yards for my ladder test which is the minimum distance suggested. I understand you should be loading 3 rounds at each powder charge, keeping everything else equal...bullet depth, case prep, primers...etc. My confusion is shooting them. So what I see if you take one bullet from each loaded powder charge and shoot all powder charge weights. for example....1 from 40grains, 1 from 40.3grains, 1 from 40.6 grains...etc. Then you do the same thing with the next ladder but start from high charge to low and then you do the 3rd ladder....do you change targets/paper from the first round to the next so you would end with 3 different targets/paper ladders...or just one paper? If you stick with one...how do you know a cluster isnt the same charge and not multiple charges showing you a powder charge accuracy/stability zone?

Next question...at 300 yards, how large should the DOT i use to aim at? May be a stupid question but I really have no idea...I will be using a 2.5-10 power scope if that makes a difference.

Final question...is there any comments or tips you all have for my first round of ladder testing?

 

[rcairflr]

I setup a sheet of paper with numerous 3/4 inch dots on it (for 300 yards). Each dot is a powder charge. if I am doing the ladder test at 100 yards, my target dot is 1/4 inch.

AIM SMALL, SHOOT SMALL

 

[dkhunt14]

I color the points down about 3/8 inch from tip with different colored sharpies. Blue shows good green shows good and red shows good. You can let one plain. I use one target but I don't shoot round robin. I shoot each load at the same time. Matt

 

[Bigeclipse]

I setup a sheet of paper with numerous 3/4 inch dots on it (for 300 yards). Each dot is a powder charge. if I am doing the ladder test at 100 yards, my target dot is 1/4 inch.

AIM SMALL, SHOOT SMALL

I dont get you...you have a dot per powder charge...I thought you are supposed to aim at same point for ALL powder charges?

Unless you are talking OCW testing...

 

[BountyHunter]

He is coloring the bullet tips. They leave colored rings when they hit and you can tell which bullet hit where

Go to the top and read the last post on ladder testing by me and it will walk you thru it step by step

 

[Bigeclipse]

He is coloring the bullet tips. They leave colored rings when they hit and you can tell which bullet hit where

Go to the top and read the last post on ladder testing by me and it will walk you thru it step by step

I understand the colored approach to help identify which shots were which...but again...I thought with a ladder test you shoot your loads all at the same DOT. Each increase in charge should go up higher on the target. However, when you hit a node you will see several different charge weights hitting same approximate area. He suggested he was aiming at different dots which would affect this, Unless he has say 10 dots...one fore each load...then he measures height of impact in relation to those dots...and then compares to find out which loads are impacting approximately same height, which in that case he would not have to color the bullets since they will be shot at different dots/parts of the target.

 

[dkhunt14]

I only use one dot. Go to the reloading forum and read about Bounty hunters test. It is at the top of the page. Matt

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Heya BigE... I don't know that there's a right way to ladder test, or the perfect sized dot, or even the right way to work up a load. There are different ideas as to the best way to do a ladder test... But the end result is what everybody who does this Is looking for... Ie a range within you powder range that produces groups with the least amount of vertical variation.

You can do this at 100 yards, but honestly... Why bother... The variation is so minute that the information provided would be of less use than that you would get as distance increases, which is generally why people want decreased vertical variance from shot to shot in the first place.

The dot size... Well it really depends on what you can see and reliably aim at. If the dot is so large that you aren't aiming at the same point when you shoot, then the data you collect from you ladder isn't going to really reflect what the billets are doing, but what you are doing. If it's so small that you can't see it because your scopes crosshairs are covering it up... Well then... similar problem.

I prefer a cross as opposed to dots... That way I can easily see when I am left or right...and high or low of center. It also assists me in making sure my crosshairs are always in alignment from one target to the next.

As to whether you aim at a single dot/cross/whateve, or at multiples... It really doesn't matter, as long as you know which bullets come from which loads. If you are shooting at a single target, with lots of bullets, it can get pretty confusing as to which shots came from which loads. This is why the guys above recommend coloring the ogive to mouth of your bullet, different colors for different loads.

Guess the point I'm trying to make buddy... Is that there's no one single best way to do this... Only that you find a way that works best for your situation and that you can duplicate or be consistent in your methodology when doing it.

You've got a lot of questions which is a good thing... But you seem like you have a good mind as well. Just see this forum for what it is. A place where opinions and expereince are compiled... But in all candor... There's not one best way for everyone to do anything... But a lot of different ways discussed that lead to similar results. Pick one... Try it... Keep, toss out, or modify it... And eventually you will determine a way that works, for you.

Good luck haas.

-boss

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

My bad... Bullet tip to ogive coloring.

Glad I reread that... I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any color left on the bullet if you colored it from ogive to mouth... By the time it exited the barrel. Lol... If there was... once you fired a couple different loads... You'd probably wind up with a muddy color! lightbulb

 

[ShootnMathews]

Heya BigE... I don't know that there's a right way to ladder test, or the perfect sized dot, or even the right way to work up a load. There are different ideas as to the best way to do a ladder test... But the end result is what everybody who does this Is looking for... Ie a range within you powder range that produces groups with the least amount of vertical variation.

You can do this at 100 yards, but honestly... Why bother... The variation is so minute that the information provided would be of less use than that you would get as distance increases, which is generally why people want decreased vertical variance from shot to shot in the first place.

The dot size... Well it really depends on what you can see and reliably aim at. If the dot is so large that you aren't aiming at the same point when you shoot, then the data you collect from you ladder isn't going to really reflect what the billets are doing, but what you are doing. If it's so small that you can't see it because your scopes crosshairs are covering it up... Well then... similar problem.

I prefer a cross as opposed to dots... That way I can easily see when I am left or right...and high or low of center. It also assists me in making sure my crosshairs are always in alignment from one target to the next.

As to whether you aim at a single dot/cross/whateve, or at multiples... It really doesn't matter, as long as you know which bullets come from which loads. If you are shooting at a single target, with lots of bullets, it can get pretty confusing as to which shots came from which loads. This is why the guys above recommend coloring the ogive to mouth of your bullet, different colors for different loads.

Guess the point I'm trying to make buddy... Is that there's no one single best way to do this... Only that you find a way that works best for your situation and that you can duplicate or be consistent in your methodology when doing it.

You've got a lot of questions which is a good thing... But you seem like you have a good mind as well. Just see this forum for what it is. A place where opinions and expereince are compiled... But in all candor... There's not one best way for everyone to do anything... But a lot of different ways discussed that lead to similar results. Pick one... Try it... Keep, toss out, or modify it... And eventually you will determine a way that works, for you.

Good luck haas.

-boss

+1

I usually load two of each charge weight to save powder and bullets. And I will run out to the target every 6 shots or so and mark each weight by the bullet hole. This keeps confusion down. I also shoot on my own property so there's no waiting for "all clear" on the line. And I shoot all of mine at one dot. As far as dot size, with a 10x I'm going to guess you need around a 1.5" - 2" dot to aim consistently. But what I usually do is make several dots of several sizes, just a colored dot cut out. I then will put one staple in each of them on the target and go back to my gun. Ill sight them and pick the smallest on that I feel like I can aim precise on and then remove the others. I have lots of different brands and powers of scopes and not one size works for all.

Good luck. Keep firing questions and we'll try to help

 

[scoaus]

If you have 5 different charge loads, have 5 different dots/targets to aim at.

Example: 3x 44.1gr at one dot, 3x 44.3gr at the next dot, 3x 44.5gr at the next dot and so on.

Record each charge amount next to the corresponding dot on the target so you know which one was which.

 

[BountyHunter]

If you have 5 different charge loads, have 5 different dots/targets to aim at.

Example: 3x 44.1gr at one dot, 3x 44.3gr at the next dot, 3x 44.5gr at the next dot and so on.

Record each charge amount next to the corresponding dot on the target so you know which one was which.

That is not a ladder, that is OCW !!!!

OCW totally ignores chrono results and that is critical if you really want to find a node. The group and chrono results will group together on a node but then OCW is really for factory guns and 1 MOA groups.

You are looking for the vertical climbing and nodes where the separate loaded bullets group!

Here is an explanation of how I ladder test step by step.

My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder. Now this might be many reloading manuals, others recommended loads, Qload, etc, but I find a "suspected" powder, primer, bullet and case and then work a load that is normally about 2-5 grains below max to 1-2 grains over at .2 to .4 increments depending on case size. Normally this is 15-25 bullets only with 4-5 extra of the lowest charge for initial zero on the other target.

I use the smaller increments as I am looking for a node that often is only .5 to max 1.0 wide and this gives me a easier way to determine it.

1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.

2. Minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see each separate bullet impact with good spotting scope on white target. Shorter makes it to difficult to determine impacts and longer makes it too difficult again to see any impacts.

3. 35P chrono is used. This is absolutely key. Brian Litz's new book confirms why the Oehlers are the best chronos.

4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact. I also mark each shot on the 35 P paper as it is shot.

5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zero for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.

6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or I often use use colored magic markers (4-5 colors) alternating on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.

7. MV as you go up will be linear (ie roughly same FPS each bullet) until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3-4 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again. You can see on a magnum a jump of 20 FPS and then 3 bullets around 6-8 fps along then it will jump again back to around 20. This is only an example, not always.

Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!! You will have multiple bullets with similar vertical impacts and very low dispersion on MV.

8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find two, maybe three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often I do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day. I do not focus on the lowest ES/SD. Once I find a node then it is an "acceptable ES/SD and tight grouping that is confirmed. I normally shoot for single digit ideally but low teens is acceptable with the grouping.

I determine pressure by case head expansion measured with a blade micrometer, primers (but not always accurate as some are softer than others and can be misleading), sticky bolt etc. It is a combination of everything that leads me to determine I am at high pressure. I take it until I see firm signs of pressure and then stop even if I have not shot all the shots IF I am at an acceptable MV and see good nodes.

9. I then try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. For a single shot gun start, .010 in the lands and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there. I start .010 in, come out at .030, .050, .080 and .120 IF a single shot gun. One will be much tighter and then work in between to find the place normally down to .010.

10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.

11. If a gun will not shoot with all this, then another ladder with another powder or bullet combo.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

See what I mean.... Try some things out that resonate with you... And with a few individual tweaks... You'll nail it down.

 

[Bigeclipse]

That is not a ladder, that is OCW !!!!

OCW totally ignores chrono results and that is critical if you really want to find a node. The group and chrono results will group together on a node but then OCW is really for factory guns and 1 MOA groups.

You are looking for the vertical climbing and nodes where the separate loaded bullets group!

Here is an explanation of how I ladder test step by step.

My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder. Now this might be many reloading manuals, others recommended loads, Qload, etc, but I find a "suspected" powder, primer, bullet and case and then work a load that is normally about 2-5 grains below max to 1-2 grains over at .2 to .4 increments depending on case size. Normally this is 15-25 bullets only with 4-5 extra of the lowest charge for initial zero on the other target.

I use the smaller increments as I am looking for a node that often is only .5 to max 1.0 wide and this gives me a easier way to determine it.

1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.

2. Minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see each separate bullet impact with good spotting scope on white target. Shorter makes it to difficult to determine impacts and longer makes it too difficult again to see any impacts.

3. 35P chrono is used. This is absolutely key. Brian Litz's new book confirms why the Oehlers are the best chronos.

4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact. I also mark each shot on the 35 P paper as it is shot.

5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zero for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.

6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or I often use use colored magic markers (4-5 colors) alternating on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.

7. MV as you go up will be linear (ie roughly same FPS each bullet) until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3-4 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again. You can see on a magnum a jump of 20 FPS and then 3 bullets around 6-8 fps along then it will jump again back to around 20. This is only an example, not always.

Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!! You will have multiple bullets with similar vertical impacts and very low dispersion on MV.

8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find two, maybe three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often I do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day. I do not focus on the lowest ES/SD. Once I find a node then it is an "acceptable ES/SD and tight grouping that is confirmed. I normally shoot for single digit ideally but low teens is acceptable with the grouping.

I determine pressure by case head expansion measured with a blade micrometer, primers (but not always accurate as some are softer than others and can be misleading), sticky bolt etc. It is a combination of everything that leads me to determine I am at high pressure. I take it until I see firm signs of pressure and then stop even if I have not shot all the shots IF I am at an acceptable MV and see good nodes.

9. I then try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. For a single shot gun start, .010 in the lands and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there. I start .010 in, come out at .030, .050, .080 and .120 IF a single shot gun. One will be much tighter and then work in between to find the place normally down to .010.

10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.

11. If a gun will not shoot with all this, then another ladder with another powder or bullet combo.

Thanks for the tips. Just a quick question though...so theoretically speaking if you had a perfect chronograph you could simply shoot through the chronograph looking for when bullets have a very close muzzle velocity and then call that a node with out even aiming at anything down range? I would never do this but technically in a ladder test the bullets hitting around the same spot on the target are simply due to the fact they had a very similar MV right?