Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

Fiftydriver

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I wouldn't worry to much about what one ho### **** has to say Kirby, because, and I bet I'm not alone here, when you start explaining things you tend to answer questions that haven't even fully formed yet:)

Passive aggressive people just really annoy me. If your thinking something SAY it!!! But be prepared for the return that will be coming. Bart B has a pretty long Histroy of questioning not only my experience but also my wildcats performance levels and several other things in the past. Would just be refreshing to have a direct conversation instead of being questioned about everything even though he has no interest in what I say in return.

The word "Troll" comes to mind in this case.
 

Bart B

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If you have every witnessed the quality of the machining in a factory receiver in the areas of bolt squareness, receiver squareness, receiver thread alignment, barrel thread alignment, barrel thread fit to receiver thread and barrel shoulder squareness you would already know what I am referring to.

If everything is perfectly square and true in axial alignment, vibration patterns will be extremely consistant from shot to shot, load to load. When the machining is poor, vibration patterns become erratic from load to load and even shot to shot.
I know what you're referring to; factory receivers and bolts are not perfect, zero-tolerance fit, alignment and squared up.

It's just that factory actions whose receiver and bolt faces are squared up with the barrel tenon threads and lugs lapped to full contact, even with sloppy bolt fit and slight misalignment of bore axis to receiver axis as well as the bolt axis to receiver axis alignment doesn't have to be perfect and exact to do as well as any custom one with all parts in perfect fit and alignment. As long as the bolt's closed the same way for every shot, sloppy factory actions so improved shoot just as accurate as the zero-tolerance custom ones. Their vibrations pattern have to be very repeatable else they would not shoot just as accurate as the high end custom actions popular in long range bench rest ones used today.

I continue to be amazed at the insistance of everything behind the barrel tenon shoulder be as perfect as possible for accuracy when only a few things are important. None of the expensive "perfect" and "zero tolerance" custom actions made these days have performed any better accuracy wise than Winchester 70 ones made decades ago that are trued up as mentioned earlier.
 

Fiftydriver

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It's just that factory actions whose receiver and bolt faces are squared up with the barrel tenon threads and lugs lapped to full contact, even with sloppy bolt fit and slight misalignment of bore axis to receiver axis as well as the bolt axis to receiver axis alignment doesn't have to be perfect and exact to do as well as any custom one with all parts in perfect fit and alignment. As long as the bolt's closed the same way for every shot, sloppy factory actions so improved shoot just as accurate as the zero-tolerance custom ones. Their vibrations pattern have to be very repeatable else they would not shoot just as accurate as the high end custom actions popular in long range bench rest ones used today..

That could not be farther from the truth.

If a factory receiver is trued correctly it will most often shoot extremely well but it has to be blueprinted and is square with receiver threads trued to the axis if the receiver bore and a good barrel fit and good chamber and crown, yes they shoot extremely well.

BUT, you can not put crap in and get gold out. Some factory rifles shoot extremely well. I get the "My Rem 700 will shoot sub 1/4 moa groups all day long!" comments all the time from those that do not believe factory rifles are worth the expense. For them, that is true because in all honesty, most of them do not need a full custom rifle for what they do in the field.

I hear this comment all the time that their factory rifles will shoot every bit as well as a full custom rifle. If possible, I generally call them out on their comments and invite them to a day of shooting to compare their favorite factory rifle to one of my full customs.

Of the probably 100 shooters I have invited to a shooting session over the past 10 years, only 5 have agreed to the challange. Of those, all said their rifles were sub 1/4 moa rifles but they really start to sputter when I set them up on a 1/2 moa sized target at 600 to 800 yards yards and set up the video camera. I will even help them get their rifles on target at that range as none of them have had their rifles set up for anything but conventional hunting and shooting ranges.

Two of those 5 shooters could consistantly hit a 1/2 moa sized target at 600 yard and they were using Rem 700 Senderos, one in 7mm Rem Mag and the other in 300 RUM. The other three could not put two shots in a row on my 1/2 moa gong at 600. None of them could put shots consistantly on my 1/2 moa gong at 800 yards.

The first comment out of their mouths after proving what their amazing factory rifle could do was "I ment its a 1/4 moa rifle at 100 yards, not 600 or 800 yards!!" I just smile at them.

They usually they get puffed up and challange me to shoot my custom rifles that well and my reply is NOPE, I am not going to be shooting my rifle, YOU ARE!!!

I set the rifles up, generally I take my original 300 Allen Xpress on my very first Raptor LRSS rifle.

Of the five, every one could easily keep shots on my 1/2 moa gong at 600 yards. One of those guys intentionally pulled his shots to try to prove his point. He was a bit humbled when I ran a magazine full through (3 rounds) and rang the gong every time. When he realized he was coming off as a child be shot the rifle as he should have and also made consistant hits.

Not only that, but every one of them also put consectutive shots on the 1/2 moa gong at 800 yards as well. Certainly there were some misses but the vast majority were solid hits.

Now, I have seen a few factory rifles, but that I mean right out of the box rifles that with their preferred loads would shoot as well as any custom rifle. There have only been two of them over the years and they had to be loaded with their preferred loads and would not shoot most loads as well but with their preferred loads, they shot extremely well. If that was the norm, I would be out of business but that is CERTAINLY not the norm.

So your comments are no where near true.

The smaller the chambering the less critical it is for receiver machining to be perfect. I have seen some 223 Rems that had one bolt lug completely floating that would easily shoot 1/2 moa three shot groups. As you increase case size, especially case head diameter, its becomes more critical to have everything perfect.

Anyone can build a super accurate SMALL rifle, its easy. Its MUCH more challanging to build an accurate rifle on the RUM or Lapua or 408 CT parent case. Its just attention to detail and using quality componants. Not rocket science but it needs to be as perfect as possible or you WILL see it down range.

Again, your comment could not be farther from the truth. We now know your opinion, its wrong but your welcome to it even if it is wrong. On average, there is no comparision between a factory rifle and a full custom rifle in the areas of strength, rigidity and consistancy with a variaty of loads.

Again, seems like your simply trolling but this is getting old fast.
 

esshup

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Kirby:

I've only shot factory rifles, and have done a LOT of load development to get them to shoot sub MOA, but I was only shooting to 200 Yds at the most.

Then I made a trip to Montana. :D

THAT was an eye opening experience! What sold me right off the bat was able to shoot combined 1/2 MOA with 3 different rifles that I've never shot before, and being able to do it off of a shooting bench in the bed of a pickup truck.

Shooting the closer target with your 7mm AM, hitting it with the first 2 shots and having both shots within 2.5" of each other in the center of the target was amazing to me. We both saw the target swing, and heard the hit, but couldn't see where the bullets hit even tho the majority of the target was painted white (you had a dab of black paint in the center)

The difference between a full custom gun and a factory gun is night and day. Instead of spending days and days, going thru bullet after bullet, trying different powders, I can go to one bullet, one powder and get the accuracy that I'm looking for.

I can honestly say that I have only shot one factory rifle that shot consistently 1/2 moa using factory ammo, from 100 yds to 800 yds, and that was a FN SPR using FGM Match ammo. The group opened up to 4" wide by 10.5" tall at 1K, but I think that was due to barrel heat creating some mirage (10x fat reticle scope didn't help matters either). It was witnessed, and I do have pictures of the groups, but that's not the norm from what I've seen from factory rifles.

Everybody that's shot the 7mm AM that you built can't believe what it can do. Even guys that have never shot past 100 Yds were able to hit steel at 1K on their first shot and were blown away that they could do it. They have been shooting factory rifles and thought that they were just poor shots.

Granted, custom gun accuracy isn't needed for most hunters shooting at 100 yds, or even at 300 yds, but that's not why we're here now, is it? There's guys that can't shoot either, and they are O.K. with that. A buddy of mine on a good day of shooting can't shoot better than a 2" group at 100 yds from the bench. He's happy going hunting whitetails with a gun that he can group 4" at 100 Yds from a rest, from a bench. I don't think he's ever killed a deer that was past 100 Yds.

LR hunting isn't for everyone, and everyone's trigger squeezing ability is different.

If I could afford it, every gun that I own would be a full custom gun, but I don't have deep enough pockets, so I have to make do with a few. The other custom guns that I have were built on a factory gun platform, and the level of accuracy isn't in the same ballpark as Kirby's work.
 

Fiftydriver

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Thanks for your input and I could not agree more with you.

It is my opinion that anyone that has a true desire to be a quality shot at long range can in fact become a very proficent shot if they are willing to pay attention to detail and learn the correct way to do things. There are more then ONE correct way in many cases so its wise to keep an open mind but in the end, the results speak for themselves.

Something else you mentioned is also something that I would like to add onto. There are actually very few conventional hunting situations that require a full custom rifle. MOST long range hunting situations can be covered with well tuned factory rifles with their preferred handloads. SO please understand that in no way am I saying that you HAVE to have a full custom rifle to be capable of long range hunting efficency, that is certainly not the case.

Let me put it to you another way using an automotive example. Say you want a +700 HP 2010 camaro SS because you have caught the bug for a high performance street car. You go out and buy a reasonably priced used Camaro SS automatic with the L99 engine that has quite a few miles on it. New this engine was 400 hp but some hard miles by the previous owner have taken some of the life out of it so its time for an engine replacement so you have a good platform to build the power you want.

You put a load of time and money into a new L99 6.2L to get it back to new condition but then realize your still well short of your performance goals as your only at around 400 HP. To go to the next step in power you need to spend some serious coin but you decide that you will cut some corners and get average quality parts such as LT headers and full exhaust as well as a cheap cold air intake system and you will pass on the fuel pump upgrades even though its not a good idea. So now you have a better breathing engine and then you decide you simply must put on a supercharger to get to your performance goals.

You do this and it gets you into that 600 hp range, close but not what your goal was so the next step is to replace the supercharger pulley to wind up the boost to get that extra 100 HP. You do that and your at your goal but the car runs a bit tempermental in town and then you start to develope a tick in the engine, then it starts to smoke while running and eventually you have a catastrophic engine failure, WHY????

To be honest, you went half A$$ed as far as the rebuild and how you put the car together. Piston rings were wrong material for a boosted engine application, compression ratio was far to high, fuel supply was far to low, you did not get the proper guages to properly monitor what your engine was doing such as air/fuel ratio and boost guages and basically you burned your engine up because of lack of fuel.

NOW, go back in time to that same point when you decided you wanted a +700 HP camaro SS street car. You decide that if your going to do this your going to do it right so you purchase the same used 2010 automatic L99 Camaro SS. This time however you send the car off to a professional shop that does nothing but performance builds on this type of car. You tell them what you want and they tell you what it will take to get what you want safely and reliably. It costs alot more then doing it yourself but the shop knows that the engine needs significant changes so that it will handle this level of power long term. They also take the time to make sure all supporting systems on the car will help the engine produce this amount of power, again in a safe and reliable manner which means fuel pump upgrade, injector upgrades and possibly many other small things that add up to a totally reliable product. This plan may cost twice as much as the first example but after 10 years of driving the car it still is extremely strong and reliable, well worth the investment.

So what in the heck does this comparision have to do with factory rifles compared to full custom rifles.......

Most everyone could get by with a factory rifle just as they could with a factory camaro SS with 400 HP. Probably 75-80% could get by for how they hunt. Still, there is that narrow group of shooters and hunters that simply demand more weither because of nessesity or simply because they JUST want the best they can afford to limit any future frustration of any kind. For that group, which admittedly is a relatively small group of the total shooters and hunters out there, the added cost is well worth it for a full custom rifle. And once they see the difference in quality, they rarely every complain about the cost or wait.

Most that really hammer away on full custom rifles saying they are no better then a good factory rifle most often have NO experience with a quality full custom rifle. They may have played with an accurized Rem 700 which to be honest, most Rem 700s that are said to be Accurized are not done so correctly which will do nothing for consistancy. I have never had someone actually shoot a well build, properly set up full custom rifle that would EVER compare it to even the best factory rifle they have used.

When I hear those saying that a factory rifle will do anything a full custom rifle will do it throws up a load of red flags. Generally these comments are just based on a lack of experience with a quality rifle but that does not stop many of them from hammering those that choose to get a full custom rifle.

Something mentioned earlier about most shooters just thought they were bad shots. This is very true. I have had many shooters say that they are not good enough shots to shoot at long range but after about 10 minutes of coaching and 20-30 minutes on the range with a top quality rifle, they all are slapping my 20" diameter gone CONSISTANTLY at 1000 yards, something they could have only dreamed of just an hour earlier.

The main benefit with a full custom rifle, and perhaps a bad thing as well is that if you miss, generally, its not the rifles fault. If you do your part, the rifle will as well. That can not always be said for the vast majority of factory rifles out there for long range precision shooting.

Purchasing a full custom rifle just eliminates alot of the variables and excusses!!! When I miss I know why, ME!!!:rolleyes:
 

esshup

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Kirby, you hit it right on the money.

I hate missing, and when I do miss I want to make sure I know why. I really dislike wondering why, because if I do, I have no way to correct for the errant shot.
 

rick523

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I beleive youare exactly right on the points you are trying to make. I just had a rifle built(not one of yours) that may be next. But by a smith that lives close to me. I did choose to go with a rem.700 action but it was completly blue printed even to having the bolt timed,didn't know you could do that lol. My best friend on the other hand bought a sendero. Both are 7mm rem mags We shoot togeather about every weekend shooting same bullets 168 vld's I shoot one hole groups at 200 yds he shoots 3/4-1"

My rifle has Krieger barrel, visa muzzle brake, jewel [email protected], as I stated before blue printed action. Now he is ordering a Kriger barrel, brake, and trigger and haveing my smith work on action and put it togeather for him when all is said and done he will end up spending almost twice as much as I did to hopefully get same results. All Because he didn't want to spend the money on a custom gun, his coment was I can get the same results with a factory gun. I think BartB's problem is the same as my friends he wants a gun that will shoot but is to cheap to spend the $$ just MHO. By the way I,m ringing 10" steel at 800 all day long lol. Any way my point is same as your's a factory gun will not keep up with a good custom. Keep up the good work.

side note essup what part of In. you live in I'm in Terre Haute.

Rick, Shoot Straight Shoot Once.
 

Joe King

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rick I'm sort of in the same place with a guy I work with. He wants a rifle he can shoot milk jugs ect. at 1000yrds with, but he doesn't want to even go through assembling a rifle, wants to keep his costs to $650:rolleyes:. His words "I don't want a rifle I have to mess with, it'll just shoot out of the box" I told him ok! Tikka then! I also showed him what he could assemble a savage for. From low end using prethreaded, chambered Shilen barrel, BC duramax stock.... and High end using one of Shilens better barrels, and a McMillan stock (keep in mind I was only showing him what he can assemble not build along with what it would cost) and pointed out that one of his neighbors does this and can help him out. My money is that he'll go buy as cheap a rifle as he can and still wish for more. To my mind if a guy can't swing a full custom rifle, assembling one based on a savage that will fit what your after is money far better spend than to be left wishing for more, and assembling a rifle doesn't have to be done all at once you can spread it out to absorb the costs easier.
 

new shooter

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polson MT.
Kirby have you tried the new powder that Shawn Carlock is using in his LRMK 338 + P in your 338 AX to see if you would get more vel. Thaks Joe
 
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