Issues w/a Proof Research Barrel and a cold bore shot
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Quicksilver338
Well-Known Member
Maybe I missed it, but have you shot cold bore, let rifle sit for a good period of time to get back to the same temp and shoot again? As in group your cold bore shots? If it stacks your cold bore shots as tight as the warm bore then I would lean towards barrel. I would also call proof and give them a chance to make it right if it is a barrel issue.
new2mud
Well-Known Member
That would change headspacing and very bad things could happen. Please don't do this.
i built a bunch of rifles when I was shooting benchrest & of about 25 barrels I only had one that would put "cold" shot right with 2nd -5th.. I beleive your just plain lucky when you get one of these (mine was a true hummer in truest sense). Now cold bore for a sniper, i don't know how close that is? Might be what you describe is ok? most all require a fouler shot or 2
jamiebolseth
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- Feb 12, 2015
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I have 4 Proof carbon barrels, so I like them, but I think there is a difference between them and high quality steel barrels.
I have a 8 twist proof 7mm. It's 24" and sendero contour chambered in 7 SAUM. I'm shooting the 175 eldx and it does something similar to the original poster's. My cold bore is consistently .75-1.0 MOA high, then subsequent shots are around 0.4". Early on I thought "must be a scope issue" and have since replaced the scope. I have tested this enough times that the last test I ran I reproduced it at 1300 yds. My zero is for the 2-n shots, and I was able to get hits on steel at 1300 yds by using .75 moa less elevation on the first shot, and then moving it up .75 for subsequent shots and get 5 straight hits. I'm very convinced that I have a barrel problem on this one, but since it's repeatable I'm probably going to live with it. This rifle was built by LRI, so the craftsmanship is top notch and I've tried two scopes to rule scope issues out.
I have another proof on a 300 WSM that I'm having a weird issue with. On this one it shoots tight groups with my suppressor (0.2"-0.4"), but take the suppressor off and I get HUGE groups (like 2") and a huge POI shift (like not on the paper at 100 yds). I always test my unsuppressed shifts just in case I happen to need to take an unsupressed shot in a hunting situation, but on this rifle it's a disaster without the suppressor. I wouldn't even point it at an animal unsuppressed. This rifle was built by Crescent Customs, so also a top notch builder.
I own and shoot 7 different Thunderbeast suppressors and one thing I've noticed is that with a good steel barrel the POI shift is almost always nearly perfectly vertical, and quite predictable (like 2" high @ 100 yds unsuppressed), and often groups are still very good. With the proof barrels it seems like there's no telling what you'll get between suppressed and unsuppressed shooting. So it seems like the Proof carbon barrels have less predictable characteristics that good steel barrels. Another thing I noticed with Proof barrels is you have to run the exact same suppressor on them. When I shot only steel barrels I would switch between an Ultra 9 and Ultra 7 suppressor and not see any difference. I mean I literally would just grab whatever suppressor I saw first. With Proof barrels I get different POI's just switching from one ultra 7 to another identical ultra 7. So now all my suppressors are labeled to match the rifle they go on since I started shooting Proof Carbon barrels.
I still like the Proof barrels, but I'm fairly convinced they are a little more finicky than high end steel barrels if you put them up against target quality steel rifle barrels. It's just a more complicated thing to build than a steel barrel, so it makes sense that they aren't quite as predictable.
I have a 8 twist proof 7mm. It's 24" and sendero contour chambered in 7 SAUM. I'm shooting the 175 eldx and it does something similar to the original poster's. My cold bore is consistently .75-1.0 MOA high, then subsequent shots are around 0.4". Early on I thought "must be a scope issue" and have since replaced the scope. I have tested this enough times that the last test I ran I reproduced it at 1300 yds. My zero is for the 2-n shots, and I was able to get hits on steel at 1300 yds by using .75 moa less elevation on the first shot, and then moving it up .75 for subsequent shots and get 5 straight hits. I'm very convinced that I have a barrel problem on this one, but since it's repeatable I'm probably going to live with it. This rifle was built by LRI, so the craftsmanship is top notch and I've tried two scopes to rule scope issues out.
I have another proof on a 300 WSM that I'm having a weird issue with. On this one it shoots tight groups with my suppressor (0.2"-0.4"), but take the suppressor off and I get HUGE groups (like 2") and a huge POI shift (like not on the paper at 100 yds). I always test my unsuppressed shifts just in case I happen to need to take an unsupressed shot in a hunting situation, but on this rifle it's a disaster without the suppressor. I wouldn't even point it at an animal unsuppressed. This rifle was built by Crescent Customs, so also a top notch builder.
I own and shoot 7 different Thunderbeast suppressors and one thing I've noticed is that with a good steel barrel the POI shift is almost always nearly perfectly vertical, and quite predictable (like 2" high @ 100 yds unsuppressed), and often groups are still very good. With the proof barrels it seems like there's no telling what you'll get between suppressed and unsuppressed shooting. So it seems like the Proof carbon barrels have less predictable characteristics that good steel barrels. Another thing I noticed with Proof barrels is you have to run the exact same suppressor on them. When I shot only steel barrels I would switch between an Ultra 9 and Ultra 7 suppressor and not see any difference. I mean I literally would just grab whatever suppressor I saw first. With Proof barrels I get different POI's just switching from one ultra 7 to another identical ultra 7. So now all my suppressors are labeled to match the rifle they go on since I started shooting Proof Carbon barrels.
I still like the Proof barrels, but I'm fairly convinced they are a little more finicky than high end steel barrels if you put them up against target quality steel rifle barrels. It's just a more complicated thing to build than a steel barrel, so it makes sense that they aren't quite as predictable.
Uncle yib
Well-Known Member
It sounds like to me you've checked everything the only thing I could figure that I've had the same problem with is if the stock is not floated properly if that's not your problem and your break in procedure was right you might have to contact the barrel maker I know that's not what you wanna hear but that might be what you have to do
Shane Lindsey
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Have you tried other bullets?
I have seen a difference between my cold/clean barrel with different bullets and with different powders. I wouldn't give up on it until you try different combos.
308 win with Carbon Six CF barrel. 152 Hammer Hunter cold/clean 1 out of group 2-3 within group. Cold/fouled 1-3 within group. Same rifle 180gr Elite Hunter cold/clean 1- not in 2-3 within group. Cold/fouled yet to be determined. Both with CFE-223.
300 win mag 175 gr LRX w/H1000 cold/clean 1-5 all within group. Cold/fouled 1-5 all within group. RL-22 Cold/Clean 1-outside 2-5 within group. Cold/Fouled-1-5 within group.
300 RUM with a Christensen is pretty predictable now with the pills it likes. Until I found them, it would shoot 1st out and then group.
Frustrating when your rifle doesn't like the pills you want to shoot.
I have seen a difference between my cold/clean barrel with different bullets and with different powders. I wouldn't give up on it until you try different combos.
308 win with Carbon Six CF barrel. 152 Hammer Hunter cold/clean 1 out of group 2-3 within group. Cold/fouled 1-3 within group. Same rifle 180gr Elite Hunter cold/clean 1- not in 2-3 within group. Cold/fouled yet to be determined. Both with CFE-223.
300 win mag 175 gr LRX w/H1000 cold/clean 1-5 all within group. Cold/fouled 1-5 all within group. RL-22 Cold/Clean 1-outside 2-5 within group. Cold/Fouled-1-5 within group.
300 RUM with a Christensen is pretty predictable now with the pills it likes. Until I found them, it would shoot 1st out and then group.
Frustrating when your rifle doesn't like the pills you want to shoot.
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DHBWA
Well-Known Member
Yup...
I recently bought two. One was ok but it was a 6.5 CM which always shoot.
The other was crooked as a dogs hind leg. The smith and I decided to try it as that issue doesn't mean it won't shoot. It didn't shoot as a 7-08AI so after he and I screwing with it for a while decided to rechamber to 284. He got much better groups. I haven't got to to the range yet.
I won't buy another Proof....Hawk Hill or Bartlein from now on.....
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give proof a call, if it's repeatable in your testing
*This can't be the first time someone has called with this issue. They are cranking these barrels out these days by the thousands - there's bound to be some bad eggs simply due to the high numbers they are making now.
*This can't be the first time someone has called with this issue. They are cranking these barrels out these days by the thousands - there's bound to be some bad eggs simply due to the high numbers they are making now.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
You describe what I've seen forever from BR shooters: a generalization that 'hunting accuracy' is acceptable as inferior.
Well sir, we don't all accept that.
I personally waste no time on barrels that won't put two quick, from cold bore, overlapping at 200yds.
Yeah I go through barrels & guns & cold bore developments(where there is potential), and ultimately fail a bit over half the time.
This is the nature of what we have to work with. But my rate is at least that successful, because I'm seeking it, because I won't accept inferior -for hunting.
Muddyboots
Well-Known Member
I would try something really simple. Take the first cold bore shot. Put rifle away and do it again the following day on same target as another fresh cold bore shot. If it shoots to same cold bore shot from previous day there can be no doubt it is the barrel. If you try to duplicate it at range it is tough to get everything back to EXACT same cold bore shot conditions that you can replicate by shooting it the next day.
On second day I would then continue to shoot the group and see if the group drifts again after the cold bore shot. You will now have absolute confirmatory data to work with going forward.
Just a thought to consider.
On second day I would then continue to shoot the group and see if the group drifts again after the cold bore shot. You will now have absolute confirmatory data to work with going forward.
Just a thought to consider.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
There is another way to test that's similar, but a bit less painful.
I don't care about precision(grouping). ALL I care about is accuracy. Cold bore accuracy.
what I do:
1. Develop for hot bore precision, under best rest conditions.
2. Move to cold bore ACCURACY development, from field rest(bipod), in the dirt.
I use 200yds for accuracy testing because it happens to be my nemesis range. I shoot tighter at 100, or 500(in MOA) for example than I do at 200, I'm thinking because of my prescription glasses. But this is useful enough because when I'm right at 200, I'm even better everywhere else.
I use a 10 minute shot rate from cold. The reason I do this is because whether light or heavy barrel, they don't like 10mins between shots. They'll shoot better at 3min or 30min than at 10 min. I validate this with fully cold bore groups on mark, but so far, again, if I'm right at 10min, I'm even better everywhere else.
You may see similar with testing, and it hurts less than daily shot rate to try it.
I don't care about precision(grouping). ALL I care about is accuracy. Cold bore accuracy.
what I do:
1. Develop for hot bore precision, under best rest conditions.
2. Move to cold bore ACCURACY development, from field rest(bipod), in the dirt.
I use 200yds for accuracy testing because it happens to be my nemesis range. I shoot tighter at 100, or 500(in MOA) for example than I do at 200, I'm thinking because of my prescription glasses. But this is useful enough because when I'm right at 200, I'm even better everywhere else.
I use a 10 minute shot rate from cold. The reason I do this is because whether light or heavy barrel, they don't like 10mins between shots. They'll shoot better at 3min or 30min than at 10 min. I validate this with fully cold bore groups on mark, but so far, again, if I'm right at 10min, I'm even better everywhere else.
You may see similar with testing, and it hurts less than daily shot rate to try it.
