Infrared temperature gun?
- Thread starter Weaselthis
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I also use a ThermoWorks IR gun (model IRK-2 Infrared) for my pizza oven. I love their products (eg meat thermometers). My gun cost about $78 on sale. Check out their website.
They say to not use it on a reflective surface. So I think it would work for for salt bath annealing, to check the salt temp, but not the brass temp.
I chose to go with salt bath annealing because it is also quick, and safer, with no flame.
They say to not use it on a reflective surface. So I think it would work for for salt bath annealing, to check the salt temp, but not the brass temp.
I chose to go with salt bath annealing because it is also quick, and safer, with no flame.
Starlite
Well-Known Member
Any brand from Walmart or big box store. For what it's worth, I use tempilac 750*F. in my 6.5CM Brass I paint a 1/2" strip (down to annealing line of brass) , heat via the "spin and torch method" From 8-10" away. When the top of the strip starts to discolour in the water it goes.
UniqueUserName
Well-Known Member
I'm a Level-3 thermographer and use a $25k thermal imager. As others have said, you will experience inaccuracies due to low emissivity of polished brass, not to mention the cylindrical geometry of the case and inadequate spot size of a point radiometer. The only way that I would attempt to do this is by painting the case necks with a coating that has a known emissivity (soot would work), compensating for reflected apparent temperature and shooting close enough that my spot size is within the center 1/3 of the case cylinder. An IR thermometer is never going to yield an accurate, repeatable temperature under these conditions.
Disclosure: I have no experience in annealing brass, but I have a lot of experience in determining the temperature of a surface based on the amount of infrared radiation emitted by that surface.
Disclosure: I have no experience in annealing brass, but I have a lot of experience in determining the temperature of a surface based on the amount of infrared radiation emitted by that surface.
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Weaselthis
Well-Known Member
If you pay attention, you can learn something everyday........folks, I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to respond. It's certainly been an education. The talent pool on this website is fantastic!
Like some of you, (maybe MOST) I started w/ the drill/socket setup around 2008. Progressed to an Annealeez after a couple of years and I've been very satisfied with it for MY needs. Thought I'd check my self w/ the temp gun as these old eyes are gettin older everyday, thank heavens.
Tried the tempilac dealio early on. For ME, both the salt bath method and blot-the-sun-out expensive AMP are not in the future. Think I WILL try the IR gun for giggles, if for nothing else to be able to check barrel temp on fireforming days.
Thanks again for ALL the advise and education. Take care.
Tedford, from Roseville, OUT!
Like some of you, (maybe MOST) I started w/ the drill/socket setup around 2008. Progressed to an Annealeez after a couple of years and I've been very satisfied with it for MY needs. Thought I'd check my self w/ the temp gun as these old eyes are gettin older everyday, thank heavens.
Tried the tempilac dealio early on. For ME, both the salt bath method and blot-the-sun-out expensive AMP are not in the future. Think I WILL try the IR gun for giggles, if for nothing else to be able to check barrel temp on fireforming days.
Thanks again for ALL the advise and education. Take care.
Tedford, from Roseville, OUT!
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
WE DO NOT FULL ANNEAL
Every one here needs to understand right now that reloaders only stress relieve, to recover grain structure to that which is known as useful (what we load develop with). Full annealing takes brass to 'dead'. Manufacturers do this because they need to counter the work hardening in forming cases from scratch. They do NOT send us, and you do not buy, cases in fully annealed condition.
Buck Fever
Well-Known Member
Ok, how many ammunition manufacturers use salt bath dip process annealing?
Evidently that's the term between normalizing and a full anneal and the only thing we can be talking about.
Evidently that's the term between normalizing and a full anneal and the only thing we can be talking about.
Deans
Well-Known Member
Watch this video it will give you some ideas.
cartridgeanneal.com
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cartridgeanneal.com
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Buck Fever, your attempted appeal to authority is logically hollow..
Manufacturing and reloading are completely different.
Manufacturing and reloading are completely different.
Buck Fever
Well-Known Member
Some reloaders don't "process anneal" at all. Manufacturers all "process anneal" I assume it's pretty much exclusively flame "process annealing" but some might be inductive. Please tell me if any manufacturers use a salt bath. Then tell me why it is better than flame "process annealing" and bring some supporting data like brass life, neck tension, accuracy, anything.
The fact is flame "process annealing" works and it has been working for over a century.
Controlled temp salt baths have only been possible on a DIY level for maybe 4 decades and I've only seen them used for reloading for a few years.
I still haven't heard about them doing anything better.
I'm kind of curious how much the salt bath corrodes the brass?
The fact is flame "process annealing" works and it has been working for over a century.
Controlled temp salt baths have only been possible on a DIY level for maybe 4 decades and I've only seen them used for reloading for a few years.
I still haven't heard about them doing anything better.
I'm kind of curious how much the salt bath corrodes the brass?
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Process annealing is not full annealing.
-Process annealing is recovering grain structure (that gives brass it's life) to useful for ammo. It's what reloaders do, and some manufacturers would also, in later forming, to finish with a useful product.
-Full annealing takes brass to clean slate (dead soft). Brass stock suppliers and Manufacturers attain this prior to a great amount of forming. If you ever do this in reloading, you've messed up. You'll never recover from that.
RELOADERS DO NOT FULL ANNEAL.
Any annealing process subjecting brass to between 450degF+ and 1,000degF-, consistently, is useful for reloading.
It leaves brass with the hardness and ductility needed, without further work hardening.
It's my contention that the easiest way for us to do this, at our reloading benches, is to simply dip brass into that temperature range. With this, the annealing cannot be too low or too high, and the results are always the same.
It's simple.
No circus tricks or timing rocket science, or laughable measuring attempts needed. The correct temperature is applied to brass both inside and outside at the same time. A couple seconds is enough, and ANY amount of time beyond that hurts nothing at all.
Lead as a dipping medium just happens to melt in the right temperature range, and it retains heat through the dipping very well. Temperature-wise, with a reloading pot, you don't even need to measure it.
This range of temperature is well below the point of lead fuming. It's safe to breath around it and many professions do so per OSHA guidelines. But there is the managing of lead sticking to cases(soldering) which has to be pre-countered with Mobil1 or Amsoil. Then this must be solvent rinsed away, and then I tumble again for a good dry carbon layer restoration.
I don't buy into constant annealing as good, but my normal annealing for 40yrs at least has been lead dip.
The salt bath system is just the same, without lead. You can wash & dry & tumble clean. Temperature control is easy, and as the AMP attack managed to show, you can't reach full annealing with salt bath.
You won't need any gagets/stops or plates. Just pick up each case with your fingers and dip them to the level you want. No timing needed here either. You can pick up a Lee pot & a couple pounds of salt. That's it. Turn the knob up 3/4, the salt melts, dip your cases. You can reassure yourself with an inexpensive thermocouple and meter if it helps you sleep.
Some folks go through the trouble to build in tight process control over temperature, but simply being in the correct temperature region is all the control you need. It makes no difference in this region if your +/- 50degF, or +/-100degF. Results are just the same. That's the beauty of it
-Process annealing is recovering grain structure (that gives brass it's life) to useful for ammo. It's what reloaders do, and some manufacturers would also, in later forming, to finish with a useful product.
-Full annealing takes brass to clean slate (dead soft). Brass stock suppliers and Manufacturers attain this prior to a great amount of forming. If you ever do this in reloading, you've messed up. You'll never recover from that.
RELOADERS DO NOT FULL ANNEAL.
Any annealing process subjecting brass to between 450degF+ and 1,000degF-, consistently, is useful for reloading.
It leaves brass with the hardness and ductility needed, without further work hardening.
It's my contention that the easiest way for us to do this, at our reloading benches, is to simply dip brass into that temperature range. With this, the annealing cannot be too low or too high, and the results are always the same.
It's simple.
No circus tricks or timing rocket science, or laughable measuring attempts needed. The correct temperature is applied to brass both inside and outside at the same time. A couple seconds is enough, and ANY amount of time beyond that hurts nothing at all.
Lead as a dipping medium just happens to melt in the right temperature range, and it retains heat through the dipping very well. Temperature-wise, with a reloading pot, you don't even need to measure it.
This range of temperature is well below the point of lead fuming. It's safe to breath around it and many professions do so per OSHA guidelines. But there is the managing of lead sticking to cases(soldering) which has to be pre-countered with Mobil1 or Amsoil. Then this must be solvent rinsed away, and then I tumble again for a good dry carbon layer restoration.
I don't buy into constant annealing as good, but my normal annealing for 40yrs at least has been lead dip.
The salt bath system is just the same, without lead. You can wash & dry & tumble clean. Temperature control is easy, and as the AMP attack managed to show, you can't reach full annealing with salt bath.
You won't need any gagets/stops or plates. Just pick up each case with your fingers and dip them to the level you want. No timing needed here either. You can pick up a Lee pot & a couple pounds of salt. That's it. Turn the knob up 3/4, the salt melts, dip your cases. You can reassure yourself with an inexpensive thermocouple and meter if it helps you sleep.
Some folks go through the trouble to build in tight process control over temperature, but simply being in the correct temperature region is all the control you need. It makes no difference in this region if your +/- 50degF, or +/-100degF. Results are just the same. That's the beauty of it
I don't think anyone is claiming "flame" heating isn't a valid way to anneal brass. The argument is whether you can control the brass temperature, from day-to-day, as well as you can with a salt bath.
First, there is no practical way to measure peak brass temperature with either method. The problem I see with flame heating is that the rate of heat transfer is highly dependent on the adjustment of the flame ... nozzle distance, flame length, angle of impingement and flame temperature. Time exposure can be well regulated with an automated system, but that's all. Since the flame temperature is well above the desired annealing temperature, all adjustments must be well controlled to produce a consistent output ... although eyeball adjustment may well get you close enough.
With salt bath heating, salt temperature can be easily controlled within a range of 5 °F, and immersion depth controlled very accurately. With a 10 second immersion time, brass temperature will be within a couple degrees of the salt ... every time, every day. Immersion times are controlled manually and are somewhat variable, but can easily be kept within 10%. So it comes down to which method you believe produces the most consistent brass ...
First, there is no practical way to measure peak brass temperature with either method. The problem I see with flame heating is that the rate of heat transfer is highly dependent on the adjustment of the flame ... nozzle distance, flame length, angle of impingement and flame temperature. Time exposure can be well regulated with an automated system, but that's all. Since the flame temperature is well above the desired annealing temperature, all adjustments must be well controlled to produce a consistent output ... although eyeball adjustment may well get you close enough.
With salt bath heating, salt temperature can be easily controlled within a range of 5 °F, and immersion depth controlled very accurately. With a 10 second immersion time, brass temperature will be within a couple degrees of the salt ... every time, every day. Immersion times are controlled manually and are somewhat variable, but can easily be kept within 10%. So it comes down to which method you believe produces the most consistent brass ...
I engaged Google for some scientific graphics to better explain this conversation to myself. I posted my findings here if anyone is interested in a similar search.
I found this graphic in a slide show that helped me understand what is going on at different temps.
www.slideshare.net
The slides at the end of the presentation are about brass.
The graph shows the strength and ductility curves having asymptotic behavior above 500 degrees. The only thing effected by the 'extra' heat is the grain structure which grows (as mentioned in prior posts). The presentation states that "grain growth is undesirable" but does not go into detail. The last few slides show that using higher temps even for short times well have significant grain growth.
Has me rethinking my home made electronic torch annealer. Having an electronic one with a hopper is nice as its automated and they come out perfectly consistent. I guess the downside is getting it calibrated correctly. Someone should invent an automated salt bath annealer.
I found this graphic in a slide show that helped me understand what is going on at different temps.
Annealing
just keep some basic in mind, its give u enough information about this topic.
The graph shows the strength and ductility curves having asymptotic behavior above 500 degrees. The only thing effected by the 'extra' heat is the grain structure which grows (as mentioned in prior posts). The presentation states that "grain growth is undesirable" but does not go into detail. The last few slides show that using higher temps even for short times well have significant grain growth.
Has me rethinking my home made electronic torch annealer. Having an electronic one with a hopper is nice as its automated and they come out perfectly consistent. I guess the downside is getting it calibrated correctly. Someone should invent an automated salt bath annealer.
Buck Fever
Well-Known Member
If you are using a Giraud or similar, the flame is easy to regulate and aim and the mechanism is adjustable for how long the case is exposed to the flame. Nothing is uncontrolled. Nothing is inconsistent. Just load brass in the hopper, and let it do it's thing.
Unless you automate your salt bath to hold the temperature constant, dip to the same depth every time and remove after the same time every time, it's not going to be as consistent as a properly set up Giraud.
Of course absolute consistency isn't required to get the removal of work hardening stresses so lots of things will work but like every good reloader, I strive for consistency and the Giraud gives consistent results with temperature paint, the annealed zone is visually consistent and seating force seems consistent (I don't have an arbor press with a strain gauge yet).
Maybe an AMP can give finer control but you need more than a Lee lead pot to get results as consistent as a Giraud.
