Infrared temperature gun?

[Buck Fever]

It can't be any worse than flame annealing, then taking the case away from the flame to laser test while cooling all the time.

Luckily the brass is a good thermal conductor, the mass of your case gives it some historysis and the case itself will look wrong if you cook the neck.

With a consistent annealer like a Guiraud, it's easy to set it, confirm with Tempilaq and not worry.

 

[Hairtrigger]

I have one for my wood fired pizza oven...never thought to use it when annealing brass!

 

[Hairtrigger]

The way it looks I cook pizza on the oven wall

 

[ntsqd]

I doubt it would work, and probably even worse than templaque.
There is varying emissivity to mess up accurate measure.

Your best bet, honestly, is to use a heating source that is simply at the correct temperature. That would be dip annealing. With this, there is no way to get anything wrong.
https://www.thermoworks.com/emissivity-table
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/infrared-thermometer-to-measue-anneal-temp.3689620/
https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?511-Salt-Bath-Case-Annealing

There's an easy solve for the emissivity problem, soot the cases. I doubt that annealing temps with be hot enough to burn it off. According to a former co-worker who worked for the firm that designed the original IR guns, the design is based on reading a flat black surface. Using them in the dyno room we always put a spot of flat black paint on those beautifully machined aluminum engine cases where ever we needed to get a temperature reading. Used to tweak our CTO off something fierce.

 

[J E Custom]

Happy with results is often independent of right or wrong.
And here it's not a matter of luck. You're NOT getting an accurate reading with that gun, while annealing brass.

Just curious how you know what results I am getting? I tried all the other methods and found them inconsistent. This method has been the best and and most consistent and for the last decade I have not lost a single case and accuracy has improved.

If you have a better way Share it with the rest of the membership. If it is reasonable I will try it.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Buck Fever]

while your flame is in extreme excess(~3,600degF) of correct temperature(~750degF)

The flame is hot enough to burn off soot, annealing is a heat treating process that changes the bonds between the atoms in the brass, that's hotter than almost any high temperature coating can take.

It's easier to just use the temperature paint method that has worked for decades.

 

[ntsqd]

While the flame temp is certainly hot enough to burn off the soot, the metal is not (better not be!) and the soot will not burn off until the metal gets that hot. I've used this exact trick for decades to indicate when heavy/thick metal castings are pre-heated hot enough to weld on them. To burn the soot off the metal needs to reach about 1100°F. A rosebud placed with the tips of it's flames right on the soot does nothing to the soot until the metal reaches that temperature. As it happens, that temperature is about 100°-200°F lower than the temp where aluminum looses its shape and sags. You might guess how I know this.....

 

[Buck Fever]

The test I witnessed used a high dollar laser temp sensor, it might have been a Fluke, it wasn't cheap and it was backed up by a $$$ infrared camera used to locate hot spots on semiconductors.

Neither returned consistent results on brass.

Using three strips of temperature paint, we could adjust the flame to hit the middle strip consistently.

Maybe some lasers can produce accurate temps, I haven't seen it. I'm going to recommend what I know works.

 

[A/C Guy]

I am an HVAC contractor and use IR thermometers daily. They do not work on copper, nor do they work on brass.

Google is your friend:
What is the role of emissivity in infrared thermometers?
The Role of Emissivity in Infrared Thermometers. Infrared thermometers measure surface temperatures of objects by sensing the infrared radiation emitted by the object's surface. Afterward, they make a direct correlation between the amount of radiant energy being detected and the surface temperature of that object.
Emissivity and Its Effect on Infrared Thermometer Readings ...
ennologic.com/emissivity-infrared-thermometer-readings/


Small changes in an object's emissivity can result in noticeable affects on measured temperature. A 0.02 reduction in emissivity, for example, can decrease the measured temperature of an object at 100°C by approximately 2°C. Likewise, variations in the ambient temperature can affect measured temperature.
Calculating Emissivity - Optotherm

www.optotherm.com/emiss-calculating.htm

 

[Buck Fever]

While the flame temp is certainly hot enough to burn off the soot, the metal is not (better not be!) and the soot will not burn off until the metal gets that hot. I've used this exact trick for decades to indicate when heavy/thick metal castings are pre-heated hot enough to weld on them. To burn the soot off the metal needs to reach about 1100°F. A rosebud placed with the tips of it's flames right on the soot does nothing to the soot until the metal reaches that temperature. As it happens, that temperature is about 100°-200°F lower than the temp where aluminum looses its shape and sags. You might guess how I know this.....

I've done it many times to normalize 4130 tube welds. I used a hotplate to preheat aluminum so I haven't done soot on aluminum.

When testing soot on brass, we used propane soot since acetylene was not available.

acetylene soot - Google Search

The second result shows that at 800 f, 46% of acetylene soot is burned off. I'm not sure if propane soot is any different but there wasn't enough to make the laser or infrared camera read reliably.

 

[Mikecr]

If you have a better way Share it with the rest of the membership. If it is reasonable I will try it.

Post #4 provided all anyone here needs about this subject.

What I'd like is for someone to explain how they can credibly do 'better' and 'more consistent' and 'easier' than simple dip annealing at the correct temperature -for the process annealing(stress relieving) that reloaders actually desire.

We don't, and don't want to, full anneal. So why anyone ever thought that what we do would be best handled with a heat source 3X full anneal temperature, is beyond me..
Then you have another extreme; inductive annealing. From so easy a caveman can do it, to rocket science paid through the nose for. And for all the gadgets, accessories, and programs, you gain NOTHING over simple & cheap dip annealing.

 

[Buck Fever]

How many ammunition manufacturers use salt bath dip annealing?

My guess is zero.

Flame works and has worked for centuries almost (I think metallic cartridges might have been around in 1820, not sure if they annealed cases then but they certainly knew how to anneal brass).

 

[ntsqd]

The problem with a heat source at exactly the correct annealing temperature is that the closer you get the temperature of the part being heated to the heat source's temp the slower it heats the part. There are ways around this, mostly that means that the thermal mass of an immersion heater has to be orders of magnitude greater than the part being heated. But that doesn't mean that the process is instant or even fast.

Which means that how long the part being heated is immersed becomes crucial to how close it's actual temperature is to the desired temperature. And the longer that the part stays in contact with the heat source, the more the whole case gets to the heater's temperature.

So the choices are use a heat source the is quite a bit hotter than needed and measure the time of heat application to get a time that results in the desired temp in only the portion of the part where it is desired. OR use a heat source at exactly the right temperature and leave it in long enough for the part's temperature to normalize. Then you risk heating the whole part to that temperature.

Neither is perfect, both have risks. Pick your poison.

 

[J E Custom]

Post #4 provided all anyone here needs about this subject.

What I'd like is for someone to explain how they can credibly do 'better' and 'more consistent' and 'easier' than simple dip annealing at the correct temperature -for the process annealing(stress relieving) that reloaders actually desire.

We don't, and don't want to, full anneal. So why anyone ever thought that what we do would be best handled with a heat source 3X full anneal temperature, is beyond me..
Then you have another extreme; inductive annealing. From so easy a caveman can do it, to rocket science paid through the nose for. And for all the gadgets, accessories, and programs, you gain NOTHING over simple & cheap dip annealing.

Sounds like you are pushing a different method of annealing than answering the OP's question.

I also never said that I do a full anneal and make it a habit to stay away from max temperature annealing because of the difference in the alloys of different brands.

By the way, dip annealing is also time sensitive and is not timed correctly can effect the condition and amount of case annealing. Like anything else, if any process is not done right, It can do more damage than good even though it is a very dependable when used correctly.

Many people do annealing differently than others and believe that their way is best. so if your way is best for you that's what you should do. The way I anneal has been the best way for what accuracy I wanted, and if I thought that by licking my finger and touching the hot case was more accurate, That's what I would do. I use Factual results and not opinions and based on end results. The price of a system often makes people think it will make them better, but in truth if they don't utilize the equipment properly then the results will not be there.

Just saying, I like the way I anneal and the results I get. so I will keep doing it the way I do until I see a better way. Besides annealing is just one of the elements needed for true accuracy and you have to practice doing everything the best you can including improving your own skills.

It is very easy to criticize someone else's method, But very hard to improve their own. With accuracy below 1/10th moa on many of my hunting rifles, I would have to say my way is working well. Am I happy ? yes. Am I satisfied ? No, because I keep thinking I can do better and never stop trying to improve.

I answered what the Poster ask and make no apology for it !

J E CUSTOM