Idaho muzzleloader definition

[linksmechanic]

Bountyhunter- I was talking about pga regulated events like the tour. Just like the tour hunting season is regulated for good reason. Proper management is key to being able to harvest animals every year in idaho. With the ever increasing population here in Idaho, regulations must be put in place.

 

[BountyHunter]

Bountyhunter- I was talking about pga regulated events like the tour. Just like the tour hunting season is regulated for good reason. Proper management is key to being able to harvest animals every year in idaho. With the ever increasing population here in Idaho, regulations must be put in place.

Links

I am aware you were talking the tour, but the tour does not say that this 3 wood driver is only legal during this two week period, or that it can only be used to tee off and nothing else.

More importantly, proper management of animals has to do with the numbers harvested and timing, not the method. An animal harvested with a round ball flintlock is exactly the same as an inline with smokeless powder and sabots. So method is not the significant point in a management plan and is basically irrelevant. the additional seasons are just tools used to control the numbers.

Why does it bother another hunter if a hunter chooses to use an inline with sabots? What does that have to do with the management plan of number of animals harvested? Answer is self ego that my method is the only correct method.

anyone who has ever fired a flintlock knows it takes a lot of practice to develop the followthru needed to shoot accurately. Now we all know that most hunters have difficulty with a centerfire rifle much less a flintlock. think of how many wounded deer are lost. Someone explain how this makes sense from a pure management standpoint.

the constant in fighting over the "method" will be the ruination of hunting.

This is a LR site, but 90% of most shooters do not like LR and do not think it should be legal anyway

Where do you draw the line? Your common sense is the other guys pet peeve.

The next guy wants you to only hunt while hopping on one leg while using a hula hoop using a slingshot and no store bought stones. He thinks it is great and more sporting like that. Meanwhile the HSUS and other anti hunting groups are laughing their liberal butts off at the sheer stupidity of hunters fighting amongst themselves over "my method is more sporting/correct/desired/primitive" or what ever you want to call it.

My point is this trap is never ending and we have got to get over it. Hunters have to get over the real issue which is their won self ego of "my method is better/more sporting etc etc than your method", therefore I want to force everyone to use my method. If you want to hunt in a muzzleloading season with a flintlock, round balls, cut patches and blackpowder only that should be your choice, not "THE ONLY APPROVED METHOD".

The goal should to get more hunters out there to ensure the continued life of our sport and right to hunt.

Herman

 

[linksmechanic]

Yeah I know what it takes to fire a flintlock, most of my family uses them and we all agree there's a big advantage to the inliner. It does matter what you use for 1 simple reason: With an inliner they are more accurate and easier to use which in turn means more game killed. So basically your saying that we might as well have a free for all and use any weapon at any time. So the hell with the bow hunters we'll just combine all seasons. I never claimed to be a long range hunter. Do I have a problem with it? No! Most people if not all on this forum use there noodles alot more than the average joe who put's a box through his rifle every couple of years. I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating my opinion. Apparently I hit a sore spot and I apologize.

 

[Ian M]

I completely agree with Bounty. We as hunters have allowed the agencies to implement, and asked or demanded for so many stupid rules and regulations that we cannot see the bottom line. Why do we allow a game agency to dictate how old our child should be before his or her first hunting experience? I know kids who at ten years of age have more common sense than some nineteen year olds. I am not a bird hunter but why do you guys have to plug your shotguns, when you shoot your limit are you not done? Why does the govm'nt restrict hunting on Sundays in many jurisdictions, does anybody really care if a rifle is fired ten miles back in the bush on a Sunday?

Hunting is a game management tool, it is the only viable tool for attempting to regulate game populations. The alternates are poisoning and sharpshooters since we are not killing enough on the highways to help keep numbers down. In fact the insurance industry will probably start wielding as much influence as sportsmen regarding reducing deer numbers if the depredation and auto-collision costs keep climbing. To say nothing about CWD and whatever the hell disease will be next. This is about numbers, optimum numbers of deer to meet carrying capacity goals and optimum numbers of DOLLARS from license sales and other hunting spinoffs. Plus minimizing the cost the critters create by eating stored hay, market garden produce, crops and other ag products or by going through the windshields of expensive vehicles on the freeways.

This ******** about more regulations needed to finetune hunting to make the buckskinners feel happy (if there are any left...) or the guys who tempt fate by charging their Savages with shotgun powder or the guy who wants to kill with a baseball bat is just what Bounty said, it is playing into the anti-hunters hands big time.

I would hate to know what the actual wounding rate in Pennsylvania has been over the decades because hunters had to shoot at deer with smooth bore rifles and patched round balls with open sights and black powder ignited by flint sparks. During the actual seconds we are doing the act of taking the life of a game animal we should do so with as much certainty of making a clean kill as possible. Being forced to use the above equipment, particularly after your vision has gone to hell and you cannot see the deer, front sight and rear sights worth a **** anymore - makes a lot of sense. I can place my shot with maxmum precision, whether at fifteen yards or two fifty, with a frigging scope, period. As for what ignites in the barrel or what flies out, why should we give a ****. I loaded the sucker down the muzzle, isn't that enough? I think we should have muzzleloader seasons not primitive weapons seasons - primitive weapons are clubs, knives and spears.

Now I just wasted about fifteen minutes writing crap that does what they want - doing the them and us thing, gov agencies vs sportsmen, producers vs govt, autobody shop owners vs bambi lovers, baseball-bat hunters vs in-line shooters.

 

[Buffalobob]

Apparently I hit a sore spot and I apologize.

You have nothing to apologize for. Many people feel the way you do. I deliberately posted a different viewpoint to try to emphasize my way of viewing things. I did not do it to have harsh words with anyone but rather to get people to consider other things.

There is an additional fact to consider about the inlines and modern equipment. The excise tax on sporting equipment is apportioned back to the states for wildlife management. While lots of people like to rundown their officials, they are the ones who apply the science to the management as best we know it, while mixing it with some amount of politics and economics. So, when we hunters buy a new piece of equipment we are supporting the manufacturer (look at Winchester and Ithaca and other gun manufacturers who no longer exist) and the management of the animals for the future.

My intention on the original post was just for people to be aware that there are many sides to the issues and things are more complicated than just how the powder is ignited and how far the rifle will shoot.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Ian

Do you propose that we have a single season which allows all hunters to use the weapon of choice at any time during the season? It wouldn't affect the number of kills if that's all that matters.

 

[linksmechanic]

Thanks for the kind words buffalo. I'm the kinda guy that's in the middle. I'm not an extremest one way or the other. This included my political views. I look at both sides of the situation and vote for what will help all of us now and the future.

 

[waddwadd]

wow

Thought I would throw my hat into the discussion. I have for the last three years hunted elk in a muzzleloader only season. Must say its a blast. My opinion on the new regulations has less to do with the inline-traditional debate as it does with the projectile restrictions. I shoot a traditional exposed hammer muzzleloader, the people I hunt with use inlines. I dont believe they have an advantage over me. My major issue is the restriction on projectiles. I believe I owe it to the elk to dispatch them as quickly and humanely as possible. mankind developed the jacketed bullet for a reason. they work better than plain lead. people who shoot totally traditional may argue with me but I'm not talking about shooting deer. Elk are big animals and dispatching them takes alot of energy and penetration. I dont think sabots give the hunter that much of a range advantage but supplies the hunter with a whole lot of killing power.
Wade

 

[BountyHunter]

Links

No sore spot with me. It is just as I said, the method is not the important thing., only to some people.

Hunters go thru 5 phases in their hunting career as a norm. the method phase is there in the middle of the pack as its important to them how they kill the game. However it is not important to everyone else and it really is irrelevant in the big management picture.

No we cannot have open seasons where anything goes, but we cannot get anal about how it is done either and make it so limiting to other hunters particularily new ones. We have seasons and bag limits and they are adjusted yearly in many cases to "manage" the species. The fact that inlines are more accurate just means that more deer/elk might be killed in a given time period. does that stop you from getting your deer/elk with a flintlock and round ball. No, not at all, so what is the real issue?

I guess if we would all ask the question "Is this really just how I want to see it done, or is this really best for the sport and all other hunters?" first then maybe we can stop the downward spiral of fewer hunters every year.

Here is a great example of a riotous debate going on across the US. I am not a great fan of crossbows, but here in VA they allowed anyone to now use them, we now have many more hunters participating than before and maybe some will switch to compounds or traditional. So was allowing crossbows the end of bowhunting as clamored by the "tradionalists"? No not at all but some still have their panties in a wad and have trouble sitting down, but we have more bowhunters and new hunters than before, so I am all for it seeing that.

BH

 

[Ian M]

Fact is the game agencies can predict with some background data what harvests may take place with various hunts, eg. archery is lower than ml is lower than rifle and I have no idea where shotguns fit into this. No idea if there is a better way, just hate to see things get more complicated. They will never make everybody happy, but not good for hunters to self-destruct by in-fighting when we should be strengthening the sport, looking to recruit young hunters, get back guys who have quit, invite more ladies, cut the costs and make more land accessable, free tags for members of this forum, stuff like that etc.

 

[Troutslayer]

Given the season, I think the weapon should be limited to a more traditional firearm. If you've got almost the same capabilities as a rifle then you probably shouldn't be hunting during the rut (which I'm pretty sure the season is). If everyone decided that it was a great idea to get an in line and hunt elk during the rut then elk quotas would probably be met several times over and the season would either get shorter the next year or they would do away with it. Might as well start rifle season at the same time as archery, that would be a slaughter. I agree that a round ball is not enough and whatever projectile will shoot should be acceptable in order to dispatch, not wound elk. We don't have a muzzleloader season in MT though there are quite a few people who wish we did.

And as far as people saying that these regulations are dividing hunters and giving the left wing freakshows more ammunition, I think that is a little over the top. The regs are put in place in a way that game can be managed for both populations and sporting opportunities.

 

[billtyler]

Hey TS, when it comes to roundballs, they are very effective (in the right caliber of course). But you bring up a great point about when the muzzleloader season takes place which I'll try to clarify. Idaho's game-management zone system is a little confusing—when you purchase a tag you have to specify the area of the state you're chasing elk, and then decide if you want an A or B license (each one has different pros and cons depending on how you'd like to hunt that season—an A tag for example would allow you to hunt any sex during archery, but not hunt with a rifle at all, where a B tag would allow you to hunt only cows with archery, and any sex during the general rifle season). So depending on the zone and tag you buy, you might not get a muzzleloader option at all.

2007's muzzle season took place in the last three weeks of November—not during the rut. It's after nearly all the other seasons (including rifle) have closed, and is open to cows only—no bulls can be harvested.

I only bring it up in case the timing makes a difference in anybody's mind on whether or not in-lines should be used. By late November the elk have been pushed all over hell's-half-acre, and it's a last-ditch effort for some to harvest a cow.

I can appreciate a lot of the opinions about not creating roadblocks to new hunters and splitting hairs within the sport, but does the timing of the muzzle season have any impact on your opinions???

These have all been great comments. Thanks.

 

[BountyHunter]

And as far as people saying that these regulations are dividing hunters and giving the left wing freakshows more ammunition, I think that is a little over the top

Not really, for proof look at Jim Zumbo. within 24 hrs of him posting his "opinions on AR15s" it was pasted on the Sarah Brady Handgun control website documenting the need for more laws to get rid of certain guns and how they had no legitimate use.

these nuts are looking for every excuse, real or imagined to limit hunters and make it more difficult. Why play into their hands?

Regs mandating what type of muzzleoader and ball/bullet/sabot have absolutely zero to do with real management plans. They are placating the noisy ego driven tradionalists and nothing else. Do not fool yourself trying to rationalize anything but that. It is still one dead elk, not two or three and has nothing to do with round ball, conical or sabot or smokeless powder. The bottom line it is all about a number, not how. How is the ego driven and personal ethics problem we are talking about.

Good management plans are based on quotas for the state, areas, # killed etc and NOT what is used to kill the animal. HOW SIMPLY DOES NOT MATTER to the plan.

Now timing is a key factor in the start and ending dates and quotas obviously and must be considered.

BH

 

[Troutslayer]

Good management plans are based on quotas for the state, areas, # killed etc and NOT what is used to kill the animal. HOW SIMPLY DOES NOT MATTER to the plan.

God **** PETA. If it weren't for them we could be herd shooting elk with howlitzers while they're calving. And who gives a crap what the Sarah Brady handgun site says, that place probably gets like 10 hits a day.

If all the technology is allowed then I think it should be an extension of rifle season. Why should people with the money to buy a muzzleloader get special treatment/opportunities?

The timing definately impacts my opinoin, but I still feel the same way. If muzzleloader is as accurate/powerful as rifle it has to be treated like one. A lot of these opinions sound like muzzleloader industry professionals, is anyone here employed in that industry or in gun sales?