Hydrostatic shock?

[Turpentine21]

This is why I am moving back toward traditional cup and core on light to medium game. Bullets like Remington Core Lokt and Winchester Power Points essentially dump all of their energy INSIDE the animal.

The shot placement I am always trying to achieve on game is a high double lung. Double lung for obvious reasons, but the reason I shoot high on the lungs is that it tends to "shut the lights out" immediately. I believe this is due to disrupting the Brachial Plexus nerve cluster. I shoot a little back and a little low of what some of the images on the internet show. I do that for two reasons... First is to double lung them, second is to avoid unnecessary meat loss due to exploding the shoulder bone.

Sort of like this. 140Eldm at 3000fps MV , impact velocity 2910, 80 yards. I intentionally stayed off the shoulder on this one just to see what the bullet would do placed behind it. It's not necessarily high lung but any higher would have involved backstrap. She kicked two or 3 times and that was that.



This wound channel below was made with a 6mm creed using 108 eldm's on a 130 pound doe at 305 yards. MV 2960, impact velocity 2470. The bullet went through both scapulas and stopped under the offside hide. It was basically disintegrated except for the bottom of the cup. No exit but mission accomplished.


Off side scapula.

Two very different applications of shock with the same result.
I hedge my bets on mid to high shoulder though when it comes to DRT.

 

[jcloer]

Sort of like this. 140Eldm at 3000fps MV , impact velocity 2910, 80 yards. I intentionally stayed off the shoulder on this one just to see what the bullet would do placed behind it. It's not necessarily high lung but any higher would have involved backstrap. She kicked two or 3 times and that was that.
View attachment 771293
View attachment 771294

This wound channel below was made with a 6mm creed using 108 eldm's on a 130 pound doe at 305 yards. MV 2960, impact velocity 2470. The bullet went through both scapulas and stopped under the offside hide. It was basically disintegrated except for the bottom of the cup. No exit but mission accomplished.
View attachment 771292
View attachment 771304
Off side scapula.

Two very different applications of shock with the same result.
I hedge my bets on mid to high shoulder though when it comes to DRT.

Yep, very similar to my point of aim. You're just a touch further. My first antelope was a shoulder shot on a small animal and the devastation the bone fragments caused ended up costing me a LOT of meat. I prefer to only hit ribs, personally. If I do my part, they usually drop straight down like the lost their knees. Most I've seen one go is maybe 40 yards when I was a little too far back.

 

[Turpentine21]

Yep, very similar to my point of aim. You're just a touch further. My first antelope was a shoulder shot on a small animal and the devastation the bone fragments caused ended up costing me a LOT of meat. I prefer to only hit ribs, personally. If I do my part, they usually drop straight down like the lost their knees. Most I've seen one go is maybe 40 yards when I was a little too far back.

That shot was definitely not my best effort. Sun was behind her and in my eyes and she was nervous and ready to bolt. I would have preferred tighter to the shoulder but my marksmanship was lacking.

 

[sjt18]

This is why I am moving back toward traditional cup and core on light to medium game. Bullets like Remington Core Lokt and Winchester Power Points essentially dump all of their energy INSIDE the animal.

The shot placement I am always trying to achieve on game is a high double lung. Double lung for obvious reasons, but the reason I shoot high on the lungs is that it tends to "shut the lights out" immediately. I believe this is due to disrupting the Brachial Plexus nerve cluster. I shoot a little back and a little low of what some of the images on the internet show. I do that for two reasons... First is to double lung them, second is to avoid unnecessary meat loss due to exploding the shoulder bone.

IMHO, the solid copper superiority claims are mostly Barnes marketing. I get bonded- that makes sense. But what you wrote is mostly what I've experienced. And for me, I don't mind lead shrapnel turning the lungs into liquid goo. That deer can't live or suffer long with that kind of damage.

I seldom have a blood trail.... and pretty much never need one.

 

[Turpentine21]

IMHO, the solid copper superiority claims are mostly Barnes marketing. I get bonded- that makes sense. But what you wrote is mostly what I've experienced. And for me, I don't mind lead shrapnel turning the lungs into liquid goo. That deer can't live or suffer long with that kind of damage.

I seldom have a blood trail.... and pretty much never need one.

When I got my first rifle, a 270, many moons ago. I shot what my mentor shot. 100 grain soft points right behind the shoulder. The damage on the onside was tremendous. But shallow. I think every deer I shot behind the shoulder ran. I didn't know much but I started looking for a better way. I went to 130 grain Corelokts. Shots behind the shoulder almost always ran but at least I might have some blood to follow. Again, there's got to be a better way. I didn't change rifle, caliber, or bullet. I changed shot placement. Shoulder, mid or high. High mostly. I found what I was looking for then which was shoot and go load. Instead of shoot and go track. Tracking here is no fun. Neither is dragging the animal out.

 

[sjt18]

When I got my first rifle, a 270, many moons ago. I shot what my mentor shot. 100 grain soft points right behind the shoulder. The damage on the onside was tremendous. But shallow. I think every deer I shot behind the shoulder ran. I didn't know much but I started looking for a better way. I went to 130 grain Corelokts. Shots behind the shoulder almost always ran but at least I might have some blood to follow. Again, there's got to be a better way. I didn't change rifle, caliber, or bullet. I changed shot placement. Shoulder, mid or high. High mostly. I found what I was looking for then which was shoot and go load. Instead of shoot and go track. Tracking here is no fun. Neither is dragging the animal out.

Most of my shots over the years have been just above midpoint through both lungs. Whatever the cause- I've only had to "track" a maybe 3-4 deer in 25 years. One was my fault. I was busy and didn't confirm my zero before hunting season. My son found the deer a few weeks later under a cedar. One last year oddly enough was with a 140 gn Sierra TGK out of a 270 last year. I had to twist into an odd position to shoot and hit low. Bullet went straight through just barely nicking the heart. Somehow missed the lungs completely. I found it in a ditch after it ran about 100 yds.

 

[Turpentine21]

Most of my shots over the years have been just above midpoint through both lungs. Whatever the cause- I've only had to "track" a maybe 3-4 deer in 25 years. One was my fault. I was busy and didn't confirm my zero before hunting season. My son found the deer a few weeks later under a cedar. One last year oddly enough was with a 140 gn Sierra TGK out of a 270 last year. I had to twist into an odd position to shoot and hit low. Bullet went straight through just barely nicking the heart. Somehow missed the lungs completely. I found it in a ditch after it ran about 100 yds.

Many of our shots here you have a small window to shoot in with very thick briars or pines with briars within five yards of where the deer is standing. Worse, All that plus water or marsh. Even 25 yards can be a nightmare. I don't want them taking a step.

 

[sjt18]

Many of our shots here you have a small window to shoot in with very thick briars or pines with briars within five yards of where the deer is standing. Worse, All that plus water or marsh. Even 25 yards can be a nightmare. I don't want them taking a step.

I have some Norma Tipstrikes loaded similar to the TGK. I shot a doe at 200 yds after the buck I tracked. She DRT'd. Norma doesn't sell much for reloading in the US anymore. Shame. It would be perfect for you. They even advertise that it stops game in their tracks. They engineered the bullet for driven hog hunts.

 

[JamesWilson5]

I have shot whitetail with bullet traveling from 2900s to over 4000 fps from bullet weights of 100 to 150 grain even 180 grain going over 3500 fps . Shooting behind the shoulder not spine nor head shots . I have saw deer run like they have not been touched. And i have saw them drop like a head shot with all sorts of bullets from 22 caliber to 338 caliber. I can't tell any difference. My opinion is just shoot what you are confident in and make a well place shot and don't chase hydrostatic shock. Because it is very unreliable

 

[sjt18]

I have shot whitetail with bullet traveling from 2900s to over 4000 fps from bullet weights of 100 to 150 grain even 180 grain going over 3500 fps . Shooting behind the shoulder not spine nor head shots . I have saw deer run like they have not been touched. And i have saw them drop like a head shot with all sorts of bullets from 22 caliber to 338 caliber. I can't tell any difference. My opinion is just shoot what you are confident in and make a well place shot and don't chase hydrostatic shock. Because it is very unreliable

For those reasons, I'm somewhat of a bullet design heretic. I want a bullet that fragments, dumps all energy, and shreds organs inside the chest cavity. Even with 7mm at 3000+, I've never found fragments in the loins or straps from a "high" double lung shot. I seldom mess with rib meat if I'm the butcher.

If the goal is to kill the deer quickly then I still haven't had anyone explain to me why a bullet that passes all the way through is superior. Like I mentioned above, the clearest example I've had of a clean pass through resulted in a deer running for a while.

PS- for my part even if there is a little meat loss... I'd rather have one DRT that I'll find 100% of the time than risk losing the whole deer because it found a great hiding place to die.

 

[Turpentine21]

I have shot whitetail with bullet traveling from 2900s to over 4000 fps from bullet weights of 100 to 150 grain even 180 grain going over 3500 fps . Shooting behind the shoulder not spine nor head shots . I have saw deer run like they have not been touched. And i have saw them drop like a head shot with all sorts of bullets from 22 caliber to 338 caliber. I can't tell any difference. My opinion is just shoot what you are confident in and make a well place shot and don't chase hydrostatic shock. Because it is very unreliable

Break bone in the front end. Be it spine or shoulder. Way more reliable

 

[Phil Rizzo]

For those reasons, I'm somewhat of a bullet design heretic. I want a bullet that fragments, dumps all energy, and shreds organs inside the chest cavity. Even with 7mm at 3000+, I've never found fragments in the loins or straps from a "high" double lung shot. I seldom mess with rib meat if I'm the butcher.

If the goal is to kill the deer quickly then I still haven't had anyone explain to me why a bullet that passes all the way through is superior. Like I mentioned above, the clearest example I've had of a clean pass through resulted in a deer running for a while.

PS- for my part even if there is a little meat loss... I'd rather have one DRT that I'll find 100% of the time than risk losing the whole deer because it found a great hiding place to die.

When it breaks/ passes through shoulders and gets the lungs at the same time and keeps on going, I'd say it's a winner.
The top reason I'm going to monos, best of all worlds in my eyes and similar or better BC than Accubonds of the same weight. With high velocity, 3100-3600 type numbers.
Shot angle really matters none, though some I definitely prefer over others.
I'm not that brave with a Berger.

*if a hunter has to track around here, you'll wish you had 4 holes rather than just 2. It is not fun.

 

[WYO300RUM]

How are you doing Fordy !?!
Still knocking them down in Africa?
Is the new bullet still working well?

 

[ButterBean]

How are you doing Fordy !?!
Still knocking them down in Africa?
Is the new bullet still working well?

He's back home recuperating, the FFB pill worked amazing, give him about 3-4 days and he'll be posting his findings.
Here is the intro and some background.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/consistency-of-bullets-a-new-level.406915/