Hydrostatic shock?

[Turpentine21]

I'd like to see the debate around it concerning energy, "knock down power" and hell, even recoil.
Somebody around here knows a guy or his Grandad had one…

Did they use bow anchors when skillet-shooting ducks or just row the boat back the 50-100ft it reversed when shot?
The smoke probably took 10 minutes to clear out hahahah.

Now there's a different kinda smoke you have to go through running the river in the morning. The little Duck Commanders evidently get their morning started off with skunk weed. Must be why they skybust so bad! To high to judge distance. What happened to coffee!

 

[memtb]

The smoke probably took 10 minutes to clear out hahahah.

You use the smoke as cover, to row toward the next group of ducks that you're gonna "sluice"! memtb

 

[Turpentine21]

Big boar hog shoulders are the ultimate southern testing medium.
Gel can't provide anything similar to that.

The first time I hunted hogs with my longbow I hadn't done my homework. I got a shot at a big red and black boar about 6 feet from the tree I was in. Too much angle! I think that arrow penetrated about 4 inches. It ****ed the hog off. He hooks the shoate standing next to him and throws him 3 feet in the air, chases him off, then comes back disgruntled from having his meal interrupted and starts eating corn again. I couldn't get another shot. He left later with what looked like a yellow bicycle flag sticking up behind his shoulder. I shot yellow Maxi fletch feathers back then. I learned a very valuable lesson that day. Don't mess with the Shield on a boar. Go beneath it. Sows are much easier to kill.

 

[Turpentine21]

You use the smoke as cover, to row toward the next group of ducks that you're gonna "sluice"! memtb

The way those guys laid in those sculling boats the birds really couldn't see them. The only movement they made was pulling the handle back and forth with the one hand to propel the boat.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

The first time I hunted hogs with my longbow I hadn't done my homework. I got a shot at a big red and black boar about 6 feet from the tree I was in. Too much angle! I think that arrow penetrated about 4 inches. It ****ed the hog off. He hooks the shoate standing next to him and throws him 3 feet in the air, chases him off, then comes back disgruntled from having his meal interrupted and starts eating corn again. I couldn't get another shot. He left later with what looked like a yellow bicycle flag sticking up behind his shoulder. I shot yellow Maxi fletch feathers back then. I learned a very valuable lesson that day. Don't mess with the Shield on a boar. Go beneath it. Sows are much easier to kill.

Did you have a big 2 blade and a wooden arrow?

 

[Turpentine21]

I understand that tracking can be much more difficult where you are as opposed to where I am.

However, on numerous Pronghorn (Antelope) which are about the size of your Whitetails….I've yet to trail one. Granted my longest shot was only 430 yards.

I've now gone to their LRX's, supposedly can open down to 1600 fps….which is approximately 350 yards beyond my self-imposed limit of 600 yards!

So, theoretically…….I should be good on Whitetails and Pronghorn as far as I dare shoot! I'll even venture to "go out on a limb" and suggest that ….if I hit pretty close to my intended "spot", no tracking will be needed!

And as Phil stated, I'm not "culling" ……so my bullet choice would likely change if I were "culling" small game. I might even consider "eating my words" and try 300 grain Sierra Gamekings…….based solely on their BC and that they are likely cheaper than most other high BC bullets of equal or near equal weight!

For the very few shots I'll make in a season on small game….I guess I'll stay with those expensive Barnes LRX's! memtb

Yep big difference. My shot count is generally pretty high but not quite as much this year with drought, less crops, coyotes, etc. I get to go very little during the actual season. That coincides with my busiest time of the year.
I used to shoot a lot of deer with the 44 magnum. I wish I could remember the names of all the bullets. I tried 240 HPs. They would pass thru rib cage and the deer would even seem to know they were hit. Most ran a good ways before they expired. I had some Speer 225 half jackets. Jacketed up to the Cannelure then exposed lead to the tip. Those hit them like lightning. Very large wallop. Very large hole. Animals hit with those didn't go very far for some reason. The 180 Sierras made a huge wallop but a pretty shallow wound. I decided the Speers were what I was going to stick with was happy with it. Nowadays With the 45 colt it's either 250 grain XTPs. Or since I trail and finish hogs with that gun at times, 300 grain Speer Gold Dots. They kill

 

[WYO300RUM]

I can't hang with you seniors. I'm off ti bed. Up at 4:30 am .

 

[MagnumManiac]

LRX will expand at 1500fps reliably.
Been using the 25cal 101g out of 25-06 and 257Bee, as well as the 6.5mm 127g LRX out of 6.5x47, 260AI, 264WM and 6.5-300Bee and what they say is correct. The faster you push them, the better the spin rate, too.
Most bullets out of the 6.5x47 are going too slow at 600metres to expand well, not the LRX.

Cheers.

 

[FEENIX]

Energy transfer (potential to kinetic) in any form or terminology is a fact, not a myth; it is there whether we need it or not, understand it or not, accept it or not, always working for us (Laws of Physics).

 

[sjt18]

I outlined this in my earlier post.
This reason given does not coincide with the true way hydraulic pressure waves travel, hence my question, my experience does not, and never has shown hydrostatic shock doing the killing damage.
Of course, I know it's real, and occurs, but, it is not 100% reliable to occur regularly to incapacitate. Many bullet styles I use are capable of wound channels that show very small temporary wound channels and no bloodshot meat.
Interesting bullet tests we carried out were shooting metal drums (20Litres) that had 1Litre of oil in the bottom. Bullets would make hydraulic dents in the base and flip the drums upside down without actually contacting the liquid…

Cheers.

That is a function of the game being shot, caliber, weight, and velocity. Having shot dozens of whitetail deer, a 7mm 140 grain Silver Tip traveling over 3000 fps at the muzzle is as consistent incapacitating the animal as a solid copper bullet is at performing as expected.

The amount of shock created matters. If you fall from a 2 story building the shock can potentially stop your heart whereas getting punched in the chest by a young kid might be uncomfortable but not dangerous.

My argument isn't that shock will consistently kill the animal even from a larger caliber. But enough shock to disrupt nerve impulses contributes to the tissue damage and blood loss.

 

[3chester]

Cheap redneck trick for checkN hydraulic traits of a guy's Elk rounds. Take ur old empty 15w40 oil 5-gallon buckets N ya fill e'm up with water bout 2" from top. Put er on short say 24" -30" wood post, out in ur field. Pour bout a gallon of gasoline on top of the water, n ya light the gasoline, with a lath dipped in the gas. It's gonna just sit there on the water N burn like an Indy fire or plane crash . Get back about 25 yards, n let go with ur best Barnes, Speer, or Sierra 375 H&H or 300 RUM load , tryn to hit 5,6,or 7 inches up from bottom of pail. The ensuing fireball's diameter, usually 8-10 foot is the direct ratio of ur rounds hydro-power!! Great rural and display, after darkness sets in. Obviously ya watch for nearby combustible elements, ur vehicles, trees, buildings etc.

 

[Kesgo20]

For those who don't believe that shock kills, no matter what you call it explain why a duck or pheasant can die instantly from a load of pellets from a 12 gauge at reasonable range. It's not from blood loss, sometimes pellets hit the head or neck disrupting the nervous system but not always.

 

[jcloer]

The permanent cavity is what is left by the crush and temporary cavity. The permanent cavity can be several times bullet diameter due to temp cavity (depends on elasticity of tissue and diameter of cavity) but will be smaller than the actual temp cavity which in a high velocity round can be 10-20x plus projectile diameter. What the temporary cavity can do is stun or render an animal unconscious if it affects the CNS. The animal will often bleed out before it regains its feet leading people to think "shock" killed the animal. It is still bloodloss that kill but appears faster as animal "dropped in its tracks" or struggles for short distance vs running a good ways. Temp cavity can also break bones/spine or burst dense organs if close enough. The diameter of the temp cavity is proporrional to the energy transfered at any given position during penetration. The 2 main factors influencing energy transfer (temp cavity diameter) are projectile surface area and velocity as drag is proportional to surface area and v^2. This is why fat bullets and fast bullets (especially a combo of both) tend to have a reputation for "knockdown" power. Note, the rate of energy transfer and where it is at is what influences this, not the starting energy

The extra kicker is bullet fragmentation. Bullet fragmentation turns more of temp cavity into permanent cavity. The little frafments themselves are not destructive as they dont have much mass/energy to penetrate. However they poke holes in tissue around the crush cavity and tissue that may normally stretch from the temp cavity will tear and de-tach greatly increasing the permanent wound. Of course fragmenting may result in less penetration so not always a good thing as you may end up with wide/shallow wound and insufficient damage to actual vital areas

There are lesser / more ambiguous remote effects people talk about where pressure waves travel through the body/brain that cause "instant death" I have seen no clear evidence in anything I have found other than there is probably something going on sometimes.

Lou

This is why I am moving back toward traditional cup and core on light to medium game. Bullets like Remington Core Lokt and Winchester Power Points essentially dump all of their energy INSIDE the animal.

The shot placement I am always trying to achieve on game is a high double lung. Double lung for obvious reasons, but the reason I shoot high on the lungs is that it tends to "shut the lights out" immediately. I believe this is due to disrupting the Brachial Plexus nerve cluster. I shoot a little back and a little low of what some of the images on the internet show. I do that for two reasons... First is to double lung them, second is to avoid unnecessary meat loss due to exploding the shoulder bone.

 

[Echo Charlie]

Some veterinary doctors associate the DRT, without a head or spine shot, to hitting the vagus nerve.