Hydrostatic shock?

Some studies have shown that hogs are very succetable to hydrostatic shock.
I do not care much for studies.
If a bullet takes out the heart or brain, that critter is dead. Accuracy and penetration mean more than energy.
But…..if it's going to stomp or bight me….bring on the energy!!!
I'll take all three given the choice. A bullet 600 yards or more depending on what it's fired from can slow down enough that it expands very little and has little shock value even with a perfect shot. With a sleek rifle bullet you don't get much of a hole that way. That deer may eventually die but he's going to be very difficult to find.
 
Hydraulic shock, often confused with hydrostatic shock, refers to the pressure wave created when a bullet impacts soft tissue, potentially causing damage beyond the immediate wound. This phenomenon can lead to rapid incapacitation due to the shock waves affecting nearby organs and tissues.
Why does it have virtually no effect on large animals like buffalo, hippo or scrub bulls when these 'pressure waves' are very near the spine, and or, the solar plexus?
I have examined a lot of large animal wound channels, what you see in gelatine is not what happens in tightly bound contracted muscles.
Damage to lungs is vastly different to deer sized animals, the jelly like damage does not extend as much as many believe. Blood loss is huge and rapid, often showing completely filled lungs exiting blood in less than a half minute, death bellows are very soon after that blood loss.
Hitting the abdominal artery is another quick killer, often connected from quartering too, or away from the hunter. These shots are not liked by PH's, but, in my hunting, we don't use a PH and rely on our own expertise.
I shoot off-hand, shooting sticks to me are foreign and cumbersome. Make running shots awkward and difficult.

Hydraulic/Hydrostatic shock may be real, as in displacing tissue, but, it is not reliable. IMHO.

Cheers.
 
Why does it have virtually no effect on large animals like buffalo, hippo or scrub bulls when these 'pressure waves' are very near the spine, and or, the solar plexus?
I have examined a lot of large animal wound channels, what you see in gelatine is not what happens in tightly bound contracted muscles.
Damage to lungs is vastly different to deer sized animals, the jelly like damage does not extend as much as many believe. Blood loss is huge and rapid, often showing completely filled lungs exiting blood in less than a half minute, death bellows are very soon after that blood loss.
Hitting the abdominal artery is another quick killer, often connected from quartering too, or away from the hunter. These shots are not liked by PH's, but, in my hunting, we don't use a PH and rely on our own expertise.
I shoot off-hand, shooting sticks to me are foreign and cumbersome. Make running shots awkward and difficult.

Hydraulic/Hydrostatic shock may be real, as in displacing tissue, but, it is not reliable. IMHO.

Cheers.

I posed this question to the AI tool: Why does hydraulic shock have virtually no effect on large animals like buffalo, hippo or scrub bulls when these 'pressure waves' are very near the spine, and or, the solar plexus?

It gave a lengthy response - but I like it:

Hydraulic shock in the "pressure wave" sense is usually about an abrupt pressure transient that delivers mechanical stress to tissues. Large animals often don't show the dramatic effects you'd expect from a small animal because several protective/attenuating factors kick in—especially when the wave is generated and applied near the body's exterior rather than being coupled to an internal organ/vital structure with high efficiency.

Here are the main reasons.

1) Large animals scale up the distance and the "coupling"
Even if the wave is "near the spine" externally, the relevant target tissues (spinal cord segments, brainstem, major vessels, heart, etc.) are not necessarily at the same proximity or orientation as in a small animal. For a pressure wave, what matters is not just distance from the skin but the path through different tissues and the geometry of how the wave couples into the body.

As animals get larger,:
  • the path from the point of application to deep structures increases (more internal propagation/attenuation),
  • the waveform can spread and refract more through layered tissues,
  • and the proportion of the body volume that experiences peak overpressure tends to drop.
2) Strong attenuation and energy loss through heterogeneous tissues
Real tissues are not uniform. They're mixtures of muscle, fat, connective tissue, fluid spaces, bone, and air-filled cavities (lungs, gut). Pressure waves lose energy through:
  • viscosity and internal friction in soft tissue,
  • scattering at interfaces (muscle/fat/bone boundaries),
  • reflection/refraction at the spine and rib structures.
Large animals have thick musculature and substantial fat/connective layers, which can dissipate the high-frequency components—the ones most associated with "stunning" or rapid damage from transients.

3) Bone and the spine shape reflections (and can "shield" certain structures)
The spine/rib cage isn't just a passive conduit. It acts like a complex reflector and waveguide. In practice, bony structures tend to:
  • reflect parts of the waveform,
  • create standing waves (distributed stress rather than a single concentrated peak),
  • channel energy along compliant vs rigid directions.
So the peak pressure at the spinal cord may be much less than the peak at the skin/source location, even when "near the spine."

4) Animals tolerate transient disturbances because the limiting factor is not "mere pressure"
A "pressure wave near the solar plexus" might sound like it should "hit" the cardiovascular/respiratory control system, but serious physiological incapacitation usually depends on one of these:
  • reaching a specific critical tissue strain/stress fast enough to cause neural disruption,
  • inducing arrhythmia via direct cardiac shock coupling (which is hard without very good energy delivery),
  • compromising respiration (airway/lung injury) or circulation (major vessel effects).
If the transient is not high enough and not coupled effectively into the thorax/central nervous system, you get pain/local injury or startle rather than catastrophic failure. Big animals also have more physiological reserve—more blood volume, larger organ mass, stronger respiratory mechanics, and more robust cardiovascular redundancy—so short mechanical disturbances may not translate into immediate collapse.

5) "Hydraulic shock" often involves very short-duration high-frequency content that drops off fast

The more "impulsive" the source, the more it contains high-frequency components. Those components typically:
  • attenuate faster in biological tissue,
  • are more sensitive to small changes in geometry and contact conditions,
  • produce localized effects that may not propagate as an effective damaging waveform deep enough.
So the near-field "wow" doesn't necessarily mean the deep target gets the same waveform.

6) Position/orientation matters: the body is not a static uniform target
Even slight differences in stance and posture change:
  • how pressure fronts reflect off the rib cage and spine,
  • how the wave couples into muscle versus along the body surface,
  • where peak stress concentrates (often at the attachment sites of fascia/muscle planes rather than centrally at the spinal cord).
Big animals also have thicker, more layered muscle compartments that can deform and dissipate energy before it reaches sensitive neural tissue.

7) "No effect" may mean "less visible effect," not "no physics"
In animals like buffalo, hippo, or large bovids, visible collapse might not occur, but that doesn't mean internal peak strain is zero. Often you'll see:
  • local tissue bruising,
  • transient behavioral reactions,
  • subtle gait changes,
  • delayed injury rather than immediate incapacitation.
In other words, the same physical impulse can produce different injury outcomes depending on scaling, tissue composition, and energy coupling.

Those are big, tough, muscle dense critters you're chasing after.
 
I don't understand bullet behavior like i should. So take this statement with a grain of salt. My experience has been limited to 357 magnum and 44 magnum, and 444 marlin. With cast bullets. But seems like the cast do less damage to adjacent tissue. Than say a expanding bullet. I like the cast with a big flat nose as close to a full diameter as possible. I do use other calibers that have expanding bullets that do more damage. But these cast amaze me with their shocking power.
 
Those are big, tough, muscle dense critters you're chasing after.
I outlined this in my earlier post.
This reason given does not coincide with the true way hydraulic pressure waves travel, hence my question, my experience does not, and never has shown hydrostatic shock doing the killing damage.
Of course, I know it's real, and occurs, but, it is not 100% reliable to occur regularly to incapacitate. Many bullet styles I use are capable of wound channels that show very small temporary wound channels and no bloodshot meat.
Interesting bullet tests we carried out were shooting metal drums (20Litres) that had 1Litre of oil in the bottom. Bullets would make hydraulic dents in the base and flip the drums upside down without actually contacting the liquid…

Cheers.
 
I'm with you pertaining to "overkill", though it's a word that I prefer not to use……is far better than "underkill"!

As far as bullet placement, stick around the in…..there are some that apparently "never" fail to put the bullet exactly where it is intended! 😉

I'm in constant amazement at their shooting prowess! 😁 memtb
Roadkill is the word I prefer not to use !
 
Excuse me for being late to this thread.....I am a believer in the high shoulder shot, I do know it works, every deer I have shot or witnessed with a high shoulder shot, collapsed and was probably dead before it hit the ground. These have been shot with .223's, .308's and 30-06.

I started two of the kids when they were young with an RRA M4 type rifle, ammo was 75 grain soft points. Lots of practice beforehand, I instructed them where to aim, one shot kills at just over 200 yards.

Most of our deer kills here have been just before dark, about 17:20, which means a bad shot could result in a deer running off, then having to track it down in the dark. The high shoulder shot will prevent that. Just my experience.
 
I posed this question to the AI tool: Why does hydraulic shock have virtually no effect on large animals like buffalo, hippo or scrub bulls when these 'pressure waves' are very near the spine, and or, the solar plexus?

It gave a lengthy response - but I like it:

Hydraulic shock in the "pressure wave" sense is usually about an abrupt pressure transient that delivers mechanical stress to tissues. Large animals often don't show the dramatic effects you'd expect from a small animal because several protective/attenuating factors kick in—especially when the wave is generated and applied near the body's exterior rather than being coupled to an internal organ/vital structure with high efficiency.

Here are the main reasons.

1) Large animals scale up the distance and the "coupling"
Even if the wave is "near the spine" externally, the relevant target tissues (spinal cord segments, brainstem, major vessels, heart, etc.) are not necessarily at the same proximity or orientation as in a small animal. For a pressure wave, what matters is not just distance from the skin but the path through different tissues and the geometry of how the wave couples into the body.

As animals get larger,:
  • the path from the point of application to deep structures increases (more internal propagation/attenuation),
  • the waveform can spread and refract more through layered tissues,
  • and the proportion of the body volume that experiences peak overpressure tends to drop.
2) Strong attenuation and energy loss through heterogeneous tissues
Real tissues are not uniform. They're mixtures of muscle, fat, connective tissue, fluid spaces, bone, and air-filled cavities (lungs, gut). Pressure waves lose energy through:
  • viscosity and internal friction in soft tissue,
  • scattering at interfaces (muscle/fat/bone boundaries),
  • reflection/refraction at the spine and rib structures.
Large animals have thick musculature and substantial fat/connective layers, which can dissipate the high-frequency components—the ones most associated with "stunning" or rapid damage from transients.

3) Bone and the spine shape reflections (and can "shield" certain structures)
The spine/rib cage isn't just a passive conduit. It acts like a complex reflector and waveguide. In practice, bony structures tend to:
  • reflect parts of the waveform,
  • create standing waves (distributed stress rather than a single concentrated peak),
  • channel energy along compliant vs rigid directions.
So the peak pressure at the spinal cord may be much less than the peak at the skin/source location, even when "near the spine."

4) Animals tolerate transient disturbances because the limiting factor is not "mere pressure"
A "pressure wave near the solar plexus" might sound like it should "hit" the cardiovascular/respiratory control system, but serious physiological incapacitation usually depends on one of these:
  • reaching a specific critical tissue strain/stress fast enough to cause neural disruption,
  • inducing arrhythmia via direct cardiac shock coupling (which is hard without very good energy delivery),
  • compromising respiration (airway/lung injury) or circulation (major vessel effects).
If the transient is not high enough and not coupled effectively into the thorax/central nervous system, you get pain/local injury or startle rather than catastrophic failure. Big animals also have more physiological reserve—more blood volume, larger organ mass, stronger respiratory mechanics, and more robust cardiovascular redundancy—so short mechanical disturbances may not translate into immediate collapse.

5) "Hydraulic shock" often involves very short-duration high-frequency content that drops off fast
The more "impulsive" the source, the more it contains high-frequency components. Those components typically:
  • attenuate faster in biological tissue,
  • are more sensitive to small changes in geometry and contact conditions,
  • produce localized effects that may not propagate as an effective damaging waveform deep enough.
So the near-field "wow" doesn't necessarily mean the deep target gets the same waveform.

6) Position/orientation matters: the body is not a static uniform target
Even slight differences in stance and posture change:
  • how pressure fronts reflect off the rib cage and spine,
  • how the wave couples into muscle versus along the body surface,
  • where peak stress concentrates (often at the attachment sites of fascia/muscle planes rather than centrally at the spinal cord).
Big animals also have thicker, more layered muscle compartments that can deform and dissipate energy before it reaches sensitive neural tissue.

7) "No effect" may mean "less visible effect," not "no physics"
In animals like buffalo, hippo, or large bovids, visible collapse might not occur, but that doesn't mean internal peak strain is zero. Often you'll see:
  • local tissue bruising,
  • transient behavioral reactions,
  • subtle gait changes,
  • delayed injury rather than immediate incapacitation.
In other words, the same physical impulse can produce different injury outcomes depending on scaling, tissue composition, and energy coupling.

Those are big, tough, muscle dense critters you're chasing after.

I didn't see it as all that complicated! I believe that the size of the animal is directly related to the bullet's effect!

Answer exaggerated for visual clarity!

Drop a marble into a swimming pool…..minimal effect.

Drop the same marble into a cup of hot coffee that you're holding above your lap……the immediate results are notable! memtb
 
I didn't see it as all that complicated! I believe that the size of the animal is directly related to the bullet's effect!

Answer exaggerated for visual clarity!

Drop a marble into a swimming pool…..minimal effect.

Drop the same marble into a cup of hot coffee that you're holding above your lap……the immediate results are notable! memtb
Simple and understandable vs detailed and complete are going to be an individual preference. For example, when I read your post I started thinking about:
  • Height mable dropped from vs size of the marble (kinetic energy vs momentum)
  • How is the relative size of the container and marble related to the effect
So there was a complicated answer that you simplified that I immediately started complicating again.
 
Exactly. 90% of the time where I aim. Like eating heart also. Doesn't destroy it.
I'm just not into organ consumption. Though I've probably eaten my weight many times over in liver pudding. It's got rice in it. I like rice, and grits. People always talked about my eating, said I toted a big spoon. Whatever that meant.
I think it was Fordy that I was talking to about mid shoulder shots disrupting the network of vessels and nerves coming out of the heart. I don't know what it's called, I'm not known for my high IQ. Quick way to turn off the pump is the way I understand it. WYO If you lived closer you'd never run out of deer heart. And maybe I'd have a co shooter.
 
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